Speed in turns

I've searched, but have not been finding a rule of thumb or guidelines for judging the amount of speed you can use for up coming turns.

Any pointers from folks in layman terms?

I've read a twist of the wrist ii a few times, it indicates a good line is any line that works for you that allows proper throttle control. When you crack on the gas you do so smoothly and consistently until you exit, but how do you determine appropriate speed when approahing turns / twisties that are unfamiliar?

I've seen comments like don't outpace your line of sight or something similar, but I really don't know what that means.

I do plan on getting to an advanced motorcycle class, but that won't be for a while.

All advice appreciated!

Bilko said:

I've searched, but have not been finding a rule of thumb or guidelines for judging the amount of speed you can use for up coming turns.

Any pointers from folks in layman terms?

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I think its something you just learn from experience, I don't know that you could make any rule that would be useful because there are so many variables. There's no standard curve radius, grade, camber, road surface quality, visibility around the curve, etc. You factor all those things together in real time as you approach the curve and adjust accordingly.

Take it easy at first and gradually build up your confidence over time.

A cager can always slam on the brakes to stop, but you are limited with two wheels especially when you're leaned over in a turn. You need to be able to stop for something that is not in your line of sight. If you are riding through farm country and there are no obstructions to your line of sight you can go faster.

The amount of braking and throttle that can be applied in a turn is greatly reduced with the lean angle. I try to be conservative and I often cover my front brake in order to reduce my reaction time if I have to stop. Everything (braking, throttle, shifting) needs to be done smoothly, especially in turns, where the margin for error is greatly reduced.

I found that the advanced M/c class was just a repeat of the basic course. Many people recommend going to a track.

Over here advanced riding courses do go into cornering in detail. There's lots of things that you'd take into account (vanishing point showing if the bend is tightening or opening out, clues such as tree lines for where the road goes, surfaces, conditions, traffic), positioning to give maximum view and safety and the lines to take (e.g. , and very simplistically, straight-lining gentle bends that have good visibility to keep the bike upright and stable, going wide rather than apexing tighter bends so that your bike continues pointing down the road and doesn't end up pointing at the hedge if the bend tightens). In the courses you can end up parking up and walking a series of bends, standing in different positions to see how your view changes and understanding how that can affect the smoothness and speed of your ride.

Bilko said:

. . . I've seen comments like don't outpace your line of sight or something similar, but I really don't know what that means.

I do plan on getting to an advanced motorcycle class, but that won't be for a while.

All advise appreciated!

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It means don't ride any faster than you can clearly see of the road ahead of you. If a blind turn is coming up, especially if you've never ridden it before, slowing down is usually a good idea.

Bilko said:

I've searched, but have not been finding a rule of thumb or guidelines for judging the amount of speed you can use for up coming turns.

Click to expand...

Experience is about the only rule of thumb you can use. The more you ride the better idea you have of the speed for a given type of turn similar to those you've experienced. You approach them while observing similarity and differences relative to that experience and make adjustments accordingly.

As you expertise improves you're better able to make these decisions and adjustments on the fly to the extent much of this will become second nature.

Turns you know are one thing. Those you don't know could be a big surprise. However you choose your line I've seen the recommendation that you look as far down the road as possible looking "through the turn" but not at the expense of being aware of surface appraisal at any given point. This is helpful in preventing a decreasing radius turn from taking you by surprise. Guys who ride favorite roads all the time know where these and other stationary potential hazards are. If you don't and go in too hot...

There are a lot of variables you will have to access and some have already been pointed out. From my perspective I look at the line I want to take in the curve and try and keep my eye on where I wish to be on the other side of the curve. Prior to entering the curve I may downshift, this allows me to brake with the engine as opposed to actual brakes and be in the power zone of the engine so it's more responsive to accelerate out of the curve. Body position on your seat, foot pressure on the outside peg, counter steering are all part of a finesse that you acquire, or already do without thinking.
on a group ride, I follow a more experienced rider and observe what they do, however, again variables come into play; weight of rider and size, condition of tires or brand, type of bike, suspension. In the end I have to remember to ride my own ride, ride within my skill set and gently push the envelope. I'm constantly learning. Enjoy ride safely and have fun on the curves....when you get it, the grin will be awesome

Definitely take a class or two and practice counter steering until it becomes instinctual. Many single vehicle accidents happen in turns when riders traveling fast panic and forget to lean into the turn and counter steer. Do not let that be you. As a general rule, motorcycles can take turns twice as fast as the speed limit - not that you should do that. Practice, practice, and practice your counter steering!

Good basic rule in a bend - go in slow, come out fast, don't ride past what you can see, and learn about the vanishing point (where the road meets the verge - if that point moves away from you, you can speed up, if it is coming toward you, slow down - takes practice), late apexing (a whole 'nother subject). I would highly recommend PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING and MORE PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING by David Hough. Also, if your gut is in a knot, your brain is telling you that you are riding faster than you should be riding. ;-)

Uncle Phil said:

Good basic rule in a bend - go in slow, come out fast, don't ride past what you can see...

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+1...
Smooth acceleration stabilizes a motorcycle (actually any automotive) while passing through a turn...
Head posture/proper view and steering technique come next... if your view is like too short, off the "target", eyes not aligned with the horizon, steering not perfected, you're not one with the bike, etc... it will never feel save, thus the line far from perfect, risk of "freezing", running wide...
And as others remarked: practice...
Contrary to the average motorist who simply turns the wheel, we riders have to observe & consider like a zillion items when it comes to cornering...
Weather conditions, time of day, temperatures, road surface, road architecture, debris, tar-marks, white-lines, tire temperature, inflation pressure, condition & payload of motorcycle, suspension settings (like old fork oil, rear shock set too soft...), wind conditions, familiar or "foreign" environment, your very own state (mentally, health-wise, weariness, hunger, dehydration, effects of exposure (hot/cold)... ), other traffic/vehicles around, wildlife (see time of day), etc... are just a few...

IMHO is the best way to hone bike operation and control due a professional advanced/safety training; within the safe environment of a closed track/lot one can toy around undisturbed, get one with the controls and test out the limits of the bike (and rider) under guidance and the lowest possible risk...
I even complete those with pillion aboard, as both benefit largely from the training.

Thank you all for your support, this is what I was hoping for and it helps!

You could also google "The Pace" and understand the dynamics of that....key to me about how much speed to carry into a turn is sight line...if I can't see far enough to stop unexpectedly in a turn (around here that means farm equipment taking the whole road, cars doing u'turns, deer, either dead in the road or hunting you down) then I'm going too fast...practice your braking and see how long it takes you to stop unexpectedly, and when leaned over....and only ride 60 or 70 per cent of your ability....cushion is good....enjoy riding, stay safe........ff

Follow up question, would you say there is a minimum amount of speed for an aggressive lean? Say 20 MPH? Just wondering what folks experiences are.

Uncle Phil said:

I would highly recommend PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING and MORE PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING by David Hough. Also, if your gut is in a knot, your brain is telling you that you are riding faster than you should be riding.

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+1 I have both and are a great read. Also IMHO it's much easier to come into a turn erring on the side of maybe a little slower, you can always add speed easy enough, but coming in too hot.... way harder to deal with.

Yea - Its hard to put it all into a manual/book - and Kode's words "Take the line that works for you " is prob. some of the best advise. You gotta do what feels right and gives U confidence.
Until You gain some skills, probably a good idea NOT to ride in groups, because they will distract you, and U'll try to keep up & lose focus.
Lotsa practice, and a good set of tires always helps. Good Luck

All advice above is good, sound advice. What everyone has forgotten to mention is that before entering a turn, don't forget to put your bike in "sport" mode. Lower that wind screen all the way down!

Tom

I interpret the "line of sight" comment to mean that you should be able to see far enough that you can stop within that range if necessary. On a bike that means lifting it up out of the turn and braking hard whilst staying on the pavement in a left and out of the on-coming lane going right. Any higher speeds than that are literally blind faith. I've seen guys ride all day on faith - not me.

Thank you, well said! I'm going to grab a copy of proficient motorcycling, the 2nd edition on Amazon (actually got a like new edition from Barnes & Nobles for $8 - including shipping). Looks like it will be a good read. Thank you for the suggestions for that.

Bilko said:

Thank you, well said! I'm going to grab a copy of proficient motorcycling, the 2nd edition on Amazon. Looks like it will be a good read. Thank you for the suggestions for that.

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I've been riding almost 50 years but I still 'reread' those books to remind me! Of course at my age, you wake every morning with all new friends and wonder who that woman is that is in your house ...

+ whatever on not over riding your sight distance. Someone once told me to ride like a guy in front of you has a little tiny pickup truck with a refrigerator standing up in the back which is not tied down. It can fall out at any time and you need to be able to stop. Not riding like that on roads you are familiar with leads to crashes due to entering corners too fast and not being able to react to a hazard that wasn't there last time. David Hough's book cover this and other stategies for riding safely.

Lee Parks book "Total Control" contains lots of good information but in particular I like the section under 'chapter 12: Body Positioning' called '10 Steps to Proper Cornering.' Some on this web site don't like it because they think leaning to the inside makes them look like a "racer." But the leaning is not extreme like you see on a race track and on a porky bike like the ST without a lot of ground clearance, the body position means you can take the same turn at the same speed with the bike more upright than if you didn't use that body position. The book also corresponds well with the instruction in Total Control training courses like IRC (Intermediate rider course) and ARC (advanced rider course).