R/H Swing Arm Pivot Bolt Coming Loose?

OP
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First off I would really like to thank everyone who spends time here and shares their knowledge, opinions, suggestions ect. ect. Not sure how things would have played out had I not posted here and asked a question. Yesterday the "yayhoo" who performed my final service under the service agreement ( on March 16th I believe) told me " tighten it up and ride her on in I'll apply some Lock Tight re-torque I'll have you out in an hour!" Well after your help and having more time to think about things I had a better mind when I dropped my bike to them this morning. I spoke with the service manager Brad a good guy who has always seemed to care. I reminded him that they are thee only ones who have touched this bike since new and I have all records with signatures saying all nuts, bolts, fasteners have all been checked. Told him everything needs checked, fixed, put together right. Whatever it takes it must be right! He didn't say a lot except to agree and say he understands it's serious.

We'll see how things play out, but as I sit I'm glad I have the extended warranty. Let Ya know when I do.

Thank You All Again! :)
 

Blrfl

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"... I'll apply some Lock Tight re-torque I'll have you out in an hour!"
You might consider asking them to ponder why that isn't the right way to go about it before they take a wrench to it.

--Mark
 

Igofar

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:plus1:
I would be standing there watching them!
How are you going to know if they truly did inspect the swing arm bearings, or follow the proper sequence on tightening the swing arm bolts?
IIRC the service manual does NOT state to use lock tight on the fasteners.
What about the rear flange and wheel bearings?
Any shop who tells the owner to "tighten it down and ride it in, and we'll apply some lock tight and have you out in an hour" would not be allowed anywhere near my bike.
Good luck, let us know what happens.
Igofar
 
OP
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I understand what you're saying Igofar, I come from a from a family that has always done their own work on their rides. I did everything on my old Magna, cam replacement, carbs rebuilt and jetted, everything. I am not a person who runs right to the dealer anytime something go's wrong or needs serviced. I was a first time buyer of a new bike I knew nothing about and gave just about all I had to get it. Then knowing I would need another $500 for the break in service I said WTH I'll take the service package, which also included 2 more years of warranty. Without a doubt for me it was worth it. But I knew once over on March 16th I would do all the work on the bike myself. But this was something covered under a warranty I'm still paying for.

All that being said this is what I know now, I don't believe Star City is a bad dealer at all. Maybe not a big go above and beyond dealer but I think a good one none the less. I spoke with the ser. man. about the mech. telling me to tighten it and ride it w/o knowing the extent of things and does he have complete confidence in that mech. Do did say, not sure that was best idea and he had confidence in that mech. I believe he said something to the mech. because he took time and explained everything he had done.

He broke everything loose, inspected everything, said everything was "in-spec". The bolt had not come out far enough for the collar the slip down. Re-torqued everything in the proper sequence. Even showing me the factory marks on the L/H pivot bolt were now misaligned.

Two questions for you... 1. He said he torqued the R/H pivot bolt to 102ft. lbs. I said I thought it was only 80 ft. lbs. He said no and ran and got his Honda service man. and showed me exactly what it said. Sure enough it said 102lbs. being the final torque. I recently bought a new up to date man. for myself and I don't know it like a Bible but after a look I thought it said 80lbs. like you guys have said.

2. I asked them if there was any paper work for it and they said no. Is that common for work done under warranty? "Red flag"?

I do believe the pivot bolt might have been coming out since it left the factory and they/myself should have caught it way sooner. My bike has always seemed solid in every way except when I would shake handle bars while riding, a swim feeling would run right through the bike from front to back! After checking tire press. and axle bolts I just figured that was what the bike did. I didn't know better. I only road the bike home the 60 miles yesterday and it's a whole new feeling! When I shook the bars it didn't want "swim" at all! It just wanted to start leaning leaning like when counter steering. In other words, it feels great now, solid as it was meant to be.

All in all I do believe it is fixed properly and good to go. Damn I hope so.

Sorry so long, thanks for advice everyone!
 

Blrfl

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1. He said he torqued the R/H pivot bolt to 102ft. lbs. I said I thought it was only 80 ft. lbs. He said no and ran and got his Honda service man. and showed me exactly what it said. Sure enough it said 102lbs. being the final torque. I recently bought a new up to date man. for myself and I don't know it like a Bible but after a look I thought it said 80lbs. like you guys have said.
The older manuals say 80 and the parts haven't changed since the bike was introduced, so I have no idea the 102 number came from. The 80 lb-ft figure is 108 N-m, which is in the neighborhood of 102, but I can't find anything else listed as needing 102 lb-ft or N-m. If the fastener was installed dry as called for in the manual, 102 lb-ft would put it overtorqued by about 25%. Thread lockers are lubricants while still in liquid form, and lubricated threads require less torque, so 102 would be overkill on top of overkill.

The reason fasteners have a torque value is so their threads bite and hold properly, and the fastener actually stretches a tiny bit in the process. Too little and they don't hold; too much and the fastener is under more stress than it should be.

It's pretty rare for fasteners to be mis-torqued from the factory anymore since the major manufacturers all use wrenches that do the application and measuring. The human involved is just along for the ride. Even so, sometimes a properly-torqued fastener will work loose as the chassis settles in during early riding, which is what makes the once-overs at 600 and 8,000 miles so important. If I had to guess, the dealer was probably not doing the checks they were supposed to and is cleaning up after that little oversight.

2. I asked them if there was any paper work for it and they said no. Is that common for work done under warranty? "Red flag"?
I only ever had two things done under warranty (one actual problem and one recall), and my dealer printed invoices for both that included a warranty claim number. If you didn't buy the sanctioned-by-Honda extended warranty, your factory warranty expired a few months ago, which I think you said was the case. Back in #15 you mentioned a service package, and the terms of that would be between you and the dealer.

--Mark
 
OP
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Thank you for the replies, hey Mark I believe your right about the agreement being between me and Star City. I also believe it was an over site on their part, looking at fasteners w/o actually checking torque-tightness. I wonder did they just fix it w/o even doing paper work?

IDK, but I do know I just took it for a good test ride and it's like riding a different bike! I must have been riding this thing sideways for a long time! I wont even go into detail about how many different ways I've tried to figure out why it felt like I was sitting crooked. Now I feel like I'm sitting straight and the bike is going straight. Set the throttle lock take hands off bars and it stays straight as an arrow! If I did that before I knew I was going to have to lean to the left as soon as I let go.

Not sure about the torque, but I'll drop in on them and ask to see their manual again tomorrow since I'm working down there anyways.

I don't think there was any slight of hand or trickery going on, I think they just missed it and fixed it with as little commotion as possible. I don't think they're a bad dealer, just a dealer. :mad:

Unless there is something that need fixed or replaced under warranty I'll be doing all further work on my bike.

Now for MY first oil change and order new tires, can't wait to see how the tires are going to wear now!

Thanks always, Don
 

Igofar

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I understand what you're saying Igofar, I come from a from a family that has always done their own work on their rides. I did everything on my old Magna, cam replacement, carbs rebuilt and jetted, everything. I am not a person who runs right to the dealer anytime something go's wrong or needs serviced. I was a first time buyer of a new bike I knew nothing about and gave just about all I had to get it. Then knowing I would need another $500 for the break in service I said WTH I'll take the service package, which also included 2 more years of warranty. Without a doubt for me it was worth it. But I knew once over on March 16th I would do all the work on the bike myself. But this was something covered under a warranty I'm still paying for.

All that being said this is what I know now, I don't believe Star City is a bad dealer at all. Maybe not a big go above and beyond dealer but I think a good one none the less. I spoke with the ser. man. about the mech. telling me to tighten it and ride it w/o knowing the extent of things and does he have complete confidence in that mech. Do did say, not sure that was best idea and he had confidence in that mech. I believe he said something to the mech. because he took time and explained everything he had done.

He broke everything loose, inspected everything, said everything was "in-spec". The bolt had not come out far enough for the collar the slip down. Re-torqued everything in the proper sequence. Even showing me the factory marks on the L/H pivot bolt were now misaligned.

Two questions for you... 1. He said he torqued the R/H pivot bolt to 102ft. lbs. I said I thought it was only 80 ft. lbs. He said no and ran and got his Honda service man. and showed me exactly what it said. Sure enough it said 102lbs. being the final torque. I recently bought a new up to date man. for myself and I don't know it like a Bible but after a look I thought it said 80lbs. like you guys have said.

2. I asked them if there was any paper work for it and they said no. Is that common for work done under warranty? "Red flag"?

I do believe the pivot bolt might have been coming out since it left the factory and they/myself should have caught it way sooner. My bike has always seemed solid in every way except when I would shake handle bars while riding, a swim feeling would run right through the bike from front to back! After checking tire press. and axle bolts I just figured that was what the bike did. I didn't know better. I only road the bike home the 60 miles yesterday and it's a whole new feeling! When I shook the bars it didn't want "swim" at all! It just wanted to start leaning leaning like when counter steering. In other words, it feels great now, solid as it was meant to be.

All in all I do believe it is fixed properly and good to go. Damn I hope so.

Sorry so long, thanks for advice everyone!
Honda Service Manual 2003-2008:
Page 16-20
....Apply OIL to the swingarm left pivot bot threads and flange surface.
Align the frame pivot bolt hole with the hole in the swingarm.
Install the right and left pivot bolt and left pivot lock nut but do not tighten them yet.
Tighten the right pivot bolt to the specified torque.
TORQUE: 108 N.m (5.5kgf.m, 80 lbf.ft)
First tighten the left pivot bolt to the primary torque.
TORQUE: 54 N.m (5.5 kgf.m, 40lbf.ft)
Then loosen the left pivot bolt 90 degree.
Retighten the left pivot bolt to the specified torque.
TORQUE: 41 N.m (4.2 kgf.m, 30 lbf.ft)
Tighten the swingarm left pivot bolt lock nut while holding the swingarm left pivot bolt.
Tool: Lock nut wrench 6x46mm 07ZMA-MCAA101 (USA ONLY)
TORQUE: actual: 108 N.m (11.0 kgf.m, 80 lbf.ft)
INDICATE: 98 N.m (10.0 kgf.m, 72 lbf.ft)
NOTE: Refer to torque wrench reading information on page 16-3 "Service Information".
If you contact me I can text you a picture of the page for your records.
***Notice at no time are you instructed to use any type of thread locking compound on this assembly***
Igofar
 
OP
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Thanks for the directions, but like I mentioned before I have a 2003-2010 Honda Service Manual with updates to 2015. Mines reads exactly like your directions, the dealer is closed on Monday's so I will take my manual with me there on Tuesday and try to figure out why the difference. Maybe he meant to say 108N-m idk but I will find out for sure!

Igofar I do not like the feeling of not knowing what exactly was done to my bike, once this mess is cleared up I will take care of things myself. Like I always have before this bike.

Add on: One other thing I don't know is if there was lock tight applied or not, but will find out!
 
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OP
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Well I took my manual into Star City to compare with theirs. First thing the fast talking mech. try's to do is jump right on the 108 N-m "see, see" I says yes I see! It's NOT ft. lbs! Oh, oh he says well my man. is different. I told him he must be using the wrong one! I really do just try to let people do their thing, but if I reach my limit you will know it! And right there in the office they knew it. I told them this is the third time and it's still not right!
Asked him if he put lock tight on the threads? He says yes, like he's proud he did something right! I tell him he wasn't supposed to and does he know it changes the torque value? "No I did not know that, I always like to put a little on everything"

So I ended up making him redo it over while I watched. He comes out with the Hex on a breaker bar and CAN NOT break it loose! He had to go get a pipe to put over the B. bar to break it loose! He says "boy that lock tight sure works" Whatever!

I'm done with them! From now on I will do any work needed myself.

Thanks for the help I learned a lot through this

Don
 

SupraSabre

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Well, you finally got it fixed and hopefully no other damage was done.

relax and enjoy the riding now! :D
 
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... the fast talking mech. try's to do is jump right on the 108 N-m "see, see"

Using Loctite, he should have reduced the Make Up torque by about 20%, so should have used 64 ft-lb instead of 80. By torquing to 108 ft-lb with Loctite, he was about 70% above the recommended Make Up torque!
 
OP
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Using Loctite, he should have reduced the Make Up torque by about 20%, so should have used 64 ft-lb instead of 80. By torquing to 108 ft-lb with Loctite, he was about 70% above the recommended Make Up torque!
Ridiculous right! But at this point I'm considering it fixed and if it ever comes loose again I will know the feeling. Like SupraSaber says I'm going to enjoy the riding!
 
OP
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Thanks Mark I was wondering about the over torquing. All I can do now is pay close attention to it and check the torque often. If it go's bad, hopefully slowly, or if it starts to drive me crazy thinking about it I will do the repairs myself. Then there will no question. BTW I did put my own safety/torque marks on both sides.
 

Igofar

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Thanks Mark I was wondering about the over torquing. All I can do now is pay close attention to it and check the torque often. If it go's bad, hopefully slowly, or if it starts to drive me crazy thinking about it I will do the repairs myself. Then there will no question. BTW I did put my own safety/torque marks on both sides.
RONAYERS.COM - PARTS

#8 - BOLT RIGHT SWINGARM PIVOT - 90121-MCS-GOO - $19.56
#9 - BOLT LEFT SWINGARM PIVOT - 90122-MCS-GO1 - $18.45
#11 - NUT SWINGARM PIVOT - 90355-MCS-GOO - $6.31
#12 - BEARING TAPER ROLLER (25X47X15) - 91066-MCA-003 -$18.94 EA.
*OEM HONDA TOOL - 07ZM-MCAA101 (44/45)
* YOU WILL ALSO NEED A H19MM SOCKET (1/2 INCH DRIVE) (HARBOR FREIGHT MAKES A NICE IMPACT ONE CHEAP)

Since you witnessed how tight it was, and the fact they used locktite, I would really question if any damage was caused to the bearings!
You may also want to check the rear flange/driven bearings in the rear wheel just for piece of mind.
I have provided the parts numbers & prices above, including the OEM tool, in case you do go crazy worrying about it....I know with OCD I would.....
You can do this yourself, and never have to worry while out riding if a bearing will lock up or a hanger bolt will give up the ghost and toss you off.
Ride safe and be careful out there.
Igofar
 
OP
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Thank you Igofar, I've copied your post to have all the info ready when needed. Not a lot of $ for piece of mind. I did pick up a 19mm socket the other day so I will be keeping a close eye on the torque. I'll post if I decide or if the decision is made for me to replace.
 
OP
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I thank you guys for "leaning" me in the right direction. My brother has been a mech. of all things since he knew what a wrench was, (he's been at Nebraska Machinery for going on 20 years) and after explaining what has gone on his advice to me was get it apart and do it right asap! This of course was after stories of damaged wheel bearings and stretched bolts! ;) He also said I should let the manager there know what happened, saying how many people might be out there riding this guys shoddy work? I wasn't at first but now I'm not confident enough in my bike to load it down and ride 2up 600 miles to NatSTOC! So maybe I should??

I'll get on line tomorrow and start ordering parts, I'll have the bike torn apart and waiting until they get here. :mad:

Another thing my brother said was how lock tight gets really hard and once broke free/loose it basically shatters leaving balls/pieces inside and the threads should have been wire brushed clean.
 
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SupraSabre

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...
Another thing my brother said was how lock tight gets really hard and once broke free/loose it basically shatters leaving balls/pieces inside and the threads should have been wire brushed clean.
One reason why I'm selective where I put the stuff!
 
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