Final Drive Question

I have to remove the final drive from the swingarm/driveshaft to lube the splined joint between the driveshaft and the pinion gear. I've been warned that after I remove the 4 bolts (nuts), to be careful separating the final drive from the shaft because it is very easy to pull the driveshaft rearward, disconnecting it from the aft end of the engine (u-joint spline to engine).

Has anyone done this? Any suggestions/hints to prevent the drive shaft from sliding rearward?

I have to do this because there is a 'clunk' coming from this area - localized by a mechanic's stethoscope.

Hmmm, been a long time since I had mine out but I don't think you can pull the ujoint off the engine pulling the pumpkin with the drive shaft coupled. I doubt you can pull the pumpkin WITHOUT the drive shaft coming out of the ujoint. In fact it would be nice if the ujoint would detach that way then you could change it out without dropping the swingarm (but it won't happen).

It's OK if the driveshaft comes out of the ujoint, that's how it goes together. It is a bit tough to get back together at times, just hold your mouth right and keep stabbing.

Also who said you had to lube that joint? The drive shaft to rear end spline joint seem to go forever without any service, mine has.

How many miles on yours?

that spline is small I don't think it would cause much of a clunk, any unusual vibrations along with a clunk could be a u joint. Check the wheel to hub splines and the rubber insulators . Noises can carry, check your basics. It has to come off anyways.

I pulled that final drive assy. off my ST110 at 180 K miles, and it came off clean. The D.S. stayed with the engine.
It fit real well in the engine spline, and didn't try to pull out.
Not the EXACT same assy. as the 1300, but very similar, & should come apart the same way.

ZIAMON said:

Also who said you had to lube that joint? The drive shaft to rear end spline joint seem to go forever without any service, mine has.

How many miles on yours?

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29K. Read my previous post LINKY for the whole story. Both the dealer's mechanic and Kevin said they felt nothing while turning the rear wheel (checking the u-joint - i.e. no looseness or identifiable wear in the u-j). Both test drove the bike and heard the clunk. Kevin located the clunk w/ his stethoscope at the forward end of the pumpkin w/ the bike on the center stand and a helper blipping the throttle.

ZIAMON said:

Hmmm, been a long time since I had mine out but I don't think you can pull the ujoint off the engine pulling the pumpkin with the drive shaft coupled. I doubt you can pull the pumpkin WITHOUT the drive shaft coming out of the ujoint. In fact it would be nice if the ujoint would detach that way then you could change it out without dropping the swingarm (but it won't happen).

It's OK if the driveshaft comes out of the ujoint, that's how it goes together. It is a bit tough to get back together at times, just hold your mouth right and keep stabbing.

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This is what I obviously want to avoid, if possible. See below.

Al st1100 said:

that spline is small I don't think it would cause much of a clunk, any unusual vibrations along with a clunk could be a u joint. Check the wheel to hub splines and the rubber insulators . Noises can carry, check your basics. It has to come off anyways.

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Kevin suggested that I replace the rubber bumpers as a prophylactic measure - they are relatively cheap and easy to do while I have the wheel off. And I will be changing the rear tire at the same time.

ESB said:

I pulled that final drive assy. off my ST110 at 180 K miles, and it came off clean. The D.S. stayed with the engine.
It fit real well in the engine spline, and didn't try to pull out.
Not the EXACT same assy. as the 1300, but very similar, & should come apart the same way.

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This is what I want to hear (grin) but I will deal with whatever happens.

OK - another idea. The Honda Manual shows the splines at the u-joint being relatively long (the pic is not to scale but I'm guessing a 2" engagement in the u-j?). It also shows the pumpkin-drive shaft spline to be short and fat. There is a boss on the pumpkin that fits into the swingarm. Does anyone who has had theirs apart think this scenario is possible: I'll remove the pumpkin bolts and pull it rearward to clear the boss. Once the boss clears the swingarm, I'll have a helper try to grab the drive shaft with needle nose pliers (heavily taped to protect the d.s. and swing arm). If there is not enough room (i'm hoping at this point the forward splines are still engaged in the u-j) for the needle nose, I'll use a taped screwdriver. The whole object here is to try to get the shaft to remain in the u-joint and come apart at the pumpkin.

If all these shenanigans fail, I will indeed fiddle with the d.s. and get it into the u-j on reassembly. I'm simply trying to plan ahead to minimize more work.

Don't know about the 1300, but on the 1100 the four nuts are removed, final drive comes off and the driveshaft stays put.

Not to trivialize but you're worrying too much about the drive shaft coming out of the Ujoint. It's not a big deal to stick it back in the Ujoint and that's how it comes apart. The spline cup and drive shaft aren't too expensive if they are trash. I doubt they are or you would know it (see last line) and the cup comes off the pumpkin with an air impact in 1 second.

FYI the front of the drive shaft, because of the spline engagement length, usually drops out of the Ujoint just as the 4 pumpkin bolts drop off the swing arm. Good luck pulling the drive shaft from the pumpkin without disengaging the Ujoint. Also the drive shaft usually requires a little side ways pressure to pop it free of the pinion cup. There is a retaining spring ring on the drive shaft splines.

On a Honda Valkyrie this is a high wear area because of a slightly different design. Most Valk riders pull the pumpkin and drive line every tire change to lube the splines. It's not difficult. Most long distance Valk riders carry a spare pinion cup and drive shaft and many a Ujoint. I carried all three on long trips when I had Valks which meant I never had an on road failure!

Post edit:
I haven't looked at the ST diagram but the Valk had a spring on the front of the drive shaft that forces the Ujoint to decouple (and keep lineal pressure on the drive shaft in use) as you remove the pumpkin.

Second edit: I looked at a fische, ST has parts i'm not familiar with. I may be all wrong!

The ST13 is slightly different, not much. Service manual says pull the pumpkin, driveshaft included. It is held in by light pressure/oil seal and can be disassembled later. I wouldn't despair too much over pulling it out of the u-joint, easy enough to re-install.
Edit - I see Ziamon beat me to it.

According to the Service Manual, the drive shaft comes out of the swing arm with the final drive when it is removed. The Final Drive service info is in chapter 14 in my 2003 SM, don't know about the SM for the 2010 model. Now might be a good time to turn loose of some $ for a Honda service manual if you don't already have one.

Edit: I see Ray posted his reply referencing the SM while I was typing mine and searching the web for manuals. Good luck with that - if you need to get a SM you may have to visit your local friendly Honda dealer.

RaYzerman said:

The ST13 is slightly different, not much. Service manual says pull the pumpkin, driveshaft included. It is held in by light pressure/oil seal and can be disassembled later. I wouldn't despair too much over pulling it out of the u-joint, easy enough to re-install.
Edit - I see Ziamon beat me to it.

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Thank you Ray, and the others too. I have the Honda SM and have read the appropriate parts - clutch, rear wheel, final drive - a couple of times. I was told that the driveshaft is a pita to reengage in the u-joint - not difficult, but frustrating - and the pumpkin could be removed with the shaft remaining in the u-j. As I said, I was just hoping to avoid a bit of lying on the garage floor, poking a steel shaft into a splined u-j 18" away up a steel pipe.

But, you have reassured me - as soon as the tire and parts (o-rings, rubber bumpers, etc.) arrive I'll take things apart.

The driveshaft is very easy to put back on, what is hard is attaching the rubber boot and keeping it in place while you put it back together! If I remember correctly someone has a good install/replacement thread or article that will help you. Install the boot first then lube the collar and it slips into place without much fuss. Also check the SM, the proper stuff for the splinters is not the same Molly paste you use on the rear wheel splines.

Before you start tearing stuff apart, is this noise while rolling? Or in gear on stand?
The rear will make noise without a load on it.
If it is during shifting, try some lube on your shifter linkage.

You're going to get a little slop/noise in the drivetrain if you have it on the center stand. That's completely normal. 29k miles should not be an issue and many will never lube that area at all. I would replace the u-joint at 100k or maybe 75k for the heck of it but at 29k is should be fine. That doesn't mean a VERY few haven't failed at that low mileage but it's unlikely. I wouldn't lube that part of the drivetrain at all IMO. The FD fluid keeps your diff lubed and that's the main issue.

Hard to tell what your 'clunk' noise is, perhaps post a video.

I agree with mellow, make a video so we can hear what you are talking about.
If you put the bike in gear while on the center stand, they will make noise when there is no load on it. This is normal.

Mellow said:

You're going to get a little slop/noise in the drivetrain if you have it on the center stand. That's completely normal. 29k miles should not be an issue and many will never lube that area at all. I would replace the u-joint at 100k or maybe 75k for the heck of it but at 29k is should be fine. That doesn't mean a VERY few haven't failed at that low mileage but it's unlikely. I wouldn't lube that part of the drivetrain at all IMO. The FD fluid keeps your diff lubed and that's the main issue.

Hard to tell what your 'clunk' noise is, perhaps post a video.

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The clunk is heard when I engage the clutch while riding the bike. The same clunk can be heard when engaging the clutch (letting out on the clutch lever) with the bike on the center stand. As I said in my 'clutch noise' post, Kevin the mechanic isolated the noise to the rear pumpkin with his stethoscope with the bike on the center stand after a test ride. I've just replaced the rear tire, moly pasted the spline drive (wheel to pumpkin splines), moly greased* the drive shaft and replaced the rubber cush bushings inside the rear wheel. I'll see how it sounds this week. If I can reliably get the bike to 'clunk' when starting from stop, I can have my wife do a video while I start from a stopped position. We will see.

*per Honda service manual

Now your description is starting to sound like dry shifter linkage, or in need of an oil change, and or flush and bleed the clutch.