Harley Davidson emissions settlement

dduelin

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They don't need to make them dirty. They just up the engine size like every other manufacturer is doing these days. My 103 HO is clean and has plenty of pull at any legal or near legal speed. HD makes several liquid cooled engines these days (the 500/750 street, vrod, and the touring bikes like the ultra). One thing Harley is good at though is knowing how to sell. With a little over half the US market share they pull in about 6 billion annually. What other vehicle manufacturer has that kind of market share? Also, according to consumer reports (for what that's worth), Harley has the highest satisfaction in engine performance. It's not that the bikes are fast obviously, it's that most of the consumers of HD's aren't looking for performance type bikes. Given the small (nearly pointless) improvement in performance these enhancements give, I chalk the sales they had mostly up to people who just wanted to spend more money on their favorite toy (who doesn't want to do that?). A Harley and even a Buell simply won't appeal to someone looking for a sport/racing type of bike. The race replica market is quite crowded as it is and sadly Buells just didn't sell well (nor has any other American sport bike really).
As for the article, I suspect HD caved quickly for two reasons: one to avoid a marketing black eye if it seemed like they didn't care about the environment and two it just wasn't that big a business for them (they could afford to give it up). The manufacturers where this is their bread and butter will of course fight to the bitter end (if they have to).
Honda leads with 18.2 billion USD in motorcycle unit sales revenue (FY2015). That figure does not include branded apparel, decals, and license plates just motorcycle sales.
 

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Honda leads with 18.2 billion USD in motorcycle unit sales revenue (FY2015). That figure does not include branded apparel, decals, and license plates just motorcycle sales.
HD's share of the US motorcycle market is roughly 50%. Honda's is roughly 10%. And that doesn't include Harley's sales of ATVs, Dirt Bikes, and moped/scooters. ;) Honda auto has about 10% of the US auto market. However you look at it, HD dominates the US market and they probably dominate the sale of weird stuff with their name or logo on it world wide. :eek::
They obviously don't market their motorcycles as well to the rest of the world. Mostly their motorcycles (heavy on road motorcycles) just don't make as much sense for the rest of the world.
 

dduelin

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Just because HD could not compete in the less than 750cc market and so abandoned it years ago doesn't mean that they get to just use heavy weight street bikes (over 750cc) as percentage of market share. They like to do this but it skews the real numbers. When you add in the small displacement street bikes from 250cc to 750cc Honda sells nearly as many motorcycles in the US as HD does.
 

davidrider

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Just because HD could not compete in the less than 750cc market and so abandoned it years ago doesn't mean that they get to just use heavy weight street bikes (over 750cc) as percentage of market share. They like to do this but it skews the real numbers. When you add in the small displacement street bikes from 250cc to 750cc Honda sells nearly as many motorcycles in the US as HD does.
Well there is the Street 500cc and 750cc that was introduced in 2014 with a modern liquid cooled engine in a lighter smaller bike that's aimed at a low price point. I believe they're selling well in India, IDK about domestically but they're offering it. It will at least answer the question of "if only Harley made a modern, lighter, cheaper and liquid cooled bike I bet it would sell like hotcakes" <- (which I don't bet).
 
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Well there is the Street 500cc and 750cc that was introduced in 2014 with a modern liquid cooled engine in a lighter smaller bike that's aimed at a low price point. I believe they're selling well in India, IDK about domestically but they're offering it. It will at least answer the question of "if only Harley made a modern, lighter, cheaper and liquid cooled bike I bet it would sell like hotcakes" <- (which I don't bet).
I haven't seen one of these water cooled bikes in local showrooms.
Back during the 'Harley Tax' period 1982? that established an import tax on bikes 700cc and over, one of Harley's promises to the government was to develop a low emissions water cooled V-4. Didn't happen. Instead, the new ownership improved the efficiency and quality of v-twins remarkably...that was a long overdue improvement and went a long way toward keeping Harley in business. So much so that Harley itself requested the government discontinue the Japanese bike tax after just two years or so.
 

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I haven't seen one of these water cooled bikes in local showrooms.
You may not have noticed, either. The V-Rod and Street 500/750 have full radiators that you can't miss, but I doubt either model is front and center at dealerships. The larger bikes are still air-cooled but augmented by a small (~1 quart) liquid cooling system that has an electric pump and a pair of small radiators tucked into the fairing. As with the tone wheels on their ABS system, Milwaukee went to great lengths not to change the appearance.

--Mark
 
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The larger bikes are still air-cooled but augmented by a small (~1 quart) liquid cooling system that has an electric pump and a pair of small radiators tucked into the fairing.
Didn't they only water cool around the exhaust valve to raise compression enough to make them run much hotter. Then needed to cool the exhaust area after they needed to lean them out to pass emissions.
 

davidrider

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Didn't they only water cool around the exhaust valve to raise compression enough to make them run much hotter. Then needed to cool the exhaust area after they needed to lean them out to pass emissions.
The 103 HO engine is still primarily air & oil cooled. The liquid cooling is in the heads near to the exhaust valves which is of course the hottest area (makes sense yes?). BMW's "liquid cooling" is like the same thing on the boxer heads. My engine, also the 103 HO, does not have the liquid cooling but has basically the same performance. My bike being completely naked doesn't need it because it gets plenty of air to the engine area even when stopped.
This link here has a good explanation: http://motorcycles.about.com/od/harleydavidson/ss/Six-Things-You-Should-Know-About-Liquid-Cooled-2014-Harley-Davidsons.htm
 
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The 103 HO engine is still primarily air & oil cooled. The liquid cooling is in the heads near to the exhaust valves which is of course the hottest area (makes sense yes?). BMW's "liquid cooling" is like the same thing on the boxer heads. My engine, also the 103 HO, does not have the liquid cooling but has basically the same performance. My bike being completely naked doesn't need it because it gets plenty of air to the engine area even when stopped.
This link here has a good explanation: http://motorcycles.about.com/od/harleydavidson/ss/Six-Things-You-Should-Know-About-Liquid-Cooled-2014-Harley-Davidsons.htm
Old news: Some 2017 models now 107ci, and 4 valves per cyclinder.
http://www.cycleworld.com/harley-davidson-motorcycles-new-milwaukee-eight-big-twin-engine#page-2
 
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Some will be air/oil cooled, some will have the liquid cooling. This is just a progression toward being compliant with EPA mandates. How the new 107 stacks up against the old twin cam /2V design remains to be seen. If it is like previous engine versions, it will take HD years of de-bugging to get it right.
I am curious as to what the four valve configuration will do to the HD sound. For example, to me, a 2V air cooled Ducati sounds a lot better than a 4V, liquid cooled one. I hope the same does not hold true for HD. Surely the legacy engineers have addressed this. I also read somewhere that they purposefully left some vibration in, to compliment the HD "character". My 103 has minimal vibration, especially at speed.
 
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I put a Vance and Hines exhaust on my first Harley and immediately ordered baffles for it as it was just too loud without them. I left the exhaust stock on the second and liked it a lot better. They tune the bikes to have a really nice exhaust note from the factory. If I didn't live so far out in the country I'd still have a Harley of some sort, but highway speeds with no windshield is not fun for me any more.
 

ST Gui

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jmcarruth said:
For example, to me, a 2V air cooled Ducati sounds a lot better than a 4V, liquid cooled one.
I'm wondering exactly what changes made bikes' sound different. I wouldn't think any degree of liquid cooling or additional valves would themselves make any real difference in the exhaust note. Engine noise sure. But the exhaust?

Speaking of exhaust sound the CBX once had a tuned exhaust that was said to mimic that of an F-4 Phantom jet:


"So we sent some engineers to the Hyakuri Japanese Air Force base in Chiba prefecture. For ten days they tape-recorded the sound of Phantom jet fighters, and then came back and designed an exhaust system for the CBX that could duplicate that sound. When I heard it for the first time I was amazed; they had captured the Phantom sound perfectly...

The Six, with its Phantom exhaust, made me feel like I was going 200 when I was only going 100. The bike's sound had a feel - a noise quality and texture - completely different from anything I have ever experienced. It sounded better than the HERT bikes...

'You've gone too far. The feeling of that noise is just too much. We cannot build motorcycles that sound like jet fighters.' "


http://www.cbxclub.com/davespage/cbx-5.html


Gotta love tech! And engineering!
 
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I'm wondering exactly what changes made bikes' sound different. I wouldn't think any degree of liquid cooling or additional valves would themselves make any real difference in the exhaust note.
Larger exhaust valves allow for longer sound waves to exit the engine. Think the very narrow glass pack exhaust that pops and crackles at high RPM, now picture 3" exhaust and a very low rumble. Valves are the same way, if they are only 5/8" wide then they can only pass a 5/8' sound wave. Whereas a 1.2" valve passes a much deeper sound.
 
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