Why the difference?

drrod

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Can someone explain, to mechanically challenged guy like me, why there is such a difference in the brakes of bikes?
A BMW 1200RT will about pull your teeth out of your head when you apply the brakes. The ST....not so much, Swept area is near enough to the same as to not make a big difference and the number of pistons and pad size/caliper is pretty much the same. It can't all be due to weight. My Blackbird (virtually identical brakes to the ST) won't outstop the RT. Is it due to the hydraulics of the master and slave cylinders? brake pad material? rotor material? All of the above? Some of the above? I would love to have the power/feel of the RT's brakes on the ST.

BTW- the pads/fluid/bleeding of the brakes on my ST are all pretty much new.

Rod
 

dduelin

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Can someone explain, to mechanically challenged guy like me, why there is such a difference in the brakes of bikes?
A BMW 1200RT will about pull your teeth out of your head when you apply the brakes. The ST....not so much, Swept area is near enough to the same as to not make a big difference and the number of pistons and pad size/caliper is pretty much the same. It can't all be due to weight. My Blackbird (virtually identical brakes to the ST) won't outstop the RT. Is it due to the hydraulics of the master and slave cylinders? brake pad material? rotor material? All of the above? Some of the above? I would love to have the power/feel of the RT's brakes on the ST.

BTW- the pads/fluid/bleeding of the brakes on my ST are all pretty much new.

Rod
I don't recall much difference in documented stopping distances 70 - zero, 60 - zero between the two bikes back in the time when there were many comparisons and reviews. 10 or 15 feet more for the the ST.
 
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All I can say is that the brakes on my ST are a great deal better than any of my cruiser style bikes. My Honda VTX 1300 and 1800 are substantially harder to stop than the ST. The difference is daylight and dark.
 

Blrfl

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There are lots of variables: master cylinder valving, plumbing, piston dimensions, pad compound, contact area, rotor material and heat dissipation all come to mind. I could believe weight's a big factor here since a wet ST at 730 pounds is 28% heavier than a wet RT at 571. The Blackbird probably isn't a good comparison since it's a generation or so behind both, but it does weigh in pretty close to the RT.

It may also be intentional. BMW could have tuned the RT's brakes for lots of grab with little lever pull and Honda may have left some room for modulation. Either way, the ST already has enough brakes to stop a truck.

--Mark
 
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The RT I rode had servo assisted brakes that took some getting used to. Kinda like power brakes but not exactly.
 

thekaz

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yup differences in the valving & pistons of master cylinders, ABS modulators, surface area of pistons in calipers, can even be brake line material.
I find the ST brakes to be poor compared to my ZX12R but for a 700LBS plus touring bike with ABS and combined braking its really pretty good
 
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Not sure if they all have it, but my buds BMW has servo assist power brakes. This allows a finger touch to apply hard. Not necessarily better in stopping distance, just less "effort".
Sounds all fine and good until the system fails and you have to shell out BIG bucks for repair.
 

ST Gui

240Robert
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I would love to have the power/feel of the RT's brakes on the ST.
While that might not be possible for aforementioned variables have you thoroughly bled your brakes according to the Honda service manual?

I was astounded at the amount of air Igofar bled from my two bikes. One bike had more bubbles than Mike Nelson and the stopping distances reflected that. Another felt strong and braked much better. Still it had a few bubbles and felt stronger after being bled.

It took me a few minutes of working the brake to get re-acclimated to actual stopping power. Others here have said stainless steel braided brake lines have significantly improved their breaking.

And you could try some custom cast iron disks and appropriate pads. Of course they don't look as pretty but a touch of the brake cleans them up.

Addemdum: The factory brakes properly maintained are more than good enough for me.
Addendum 2: Keyboard doesn't listen to me.
 
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One time I could not get OEM brake pads and bought a set of EBC brake pads. Wow were they better. You could feel and hear the pads gripping the rotors....

I did a bit of research and found that those who used them ended up replacing their rotors sooner than those who used the OEM pads.
I later got the OEM pads and got rid of the EBC's. For my use the OEM's were good enough.
So try a pair of EBC pads and let us know how it compares to your BMW.


https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?148399-How-many-miles-when-you-changed-your-brake-rotors-Data-collection
 
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dduelin

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While that might not be possible for aforementioned variables have you thoroughly bled your brakes according to the Honda service manual?

I was astounded at the amount of air Igofar bled from my two bikes. One bike had more bubbles than Mike Nelson and the stopping distances reflected that. Another felt strong and braked much better. Still it had a few bubbles and felt stronger after being bled.

It took me a few minutes of working the brake to get re-acclimated to actual stopping power. Others here have said stainless steel braided brake lines have significantly improved their breaking........
Praise from the amen corner. I flush and bleed at least every 12,000 and as good as the brakes felt before service they are firmer and stronger for it.
 
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+1 on the Brake Flush & Bleed....even on a new bike directly off the showroom floor, as ST GUI found out :rofl1:
This may be a stupid question, but you do realize you will only get the full braking power when you use BOTH the front and rear brakes at the same time right?
 

ST Gui

240Robert
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dduelin said:
Praise from the amen corner. I flush and bleed at least every 12,000 and as good as the brakes felt before service they are firmer and stronger for it.
This was exactly my experience on a new bike driven from the showroom floor to the OCD garage. It seem cynical to say it but if I ever buy another bike the first thing I'll do is have the brakes flushed and bled. Dealer service just seems too uneven.

If I had done so with the first ST I wouldn't have trigger finger in two of my digits nor complained to my riding buddies about them stopping so quickly when it was me stopping so slowly! I'll use 12,000mi as an outside limit or annually (?) which ever comes first.
 
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drrod

drrod

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I have the EBC-HH pads, recent flush, bleed X2 (manual's sequence).

It just doesn't have that "bite" of the RT. I am thinking it must be valving of the system since pad area and rotor size are very close.
I am going to bleed them again though just to make sure.

Interesting side note - my BMW dealer friend said that whenever there were BMW demo rides, they emphasized to only use 2 finger braking. Apparently there were several crashes from people grabbing a handful of brake and not expecting the sudden results.

Rod
 
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I bet I could put some "Bite" into your braking system after one of my OCD Brake service flush/bleed :rofl1:
If you have any questions feel free to contact me on the white courtesy phone.
 
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drrod

drrod

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I bet I could put some "Bite" into your braking system after one of my OCD Brake service flush/bleed :rofl1:
If you have any questions feel free to contact me on the white courtesy phone.
Thanks Larry. I am going to bleed (yet again) the system and see if I can get it better.
I may call if I get frustrated.
Rod
 
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2005 to 2013
In 2005, BMW introduced the R1200RT.[3] The design of this model was completely different from the R1150RT with a 15% boost in power, 20 kg (44 lb) weight saving,[3][4] optional electronic suspension adjustment (ESA) and on-board computer. A low seat and/or a lowered suspension were available for shorter riders reducing seat height to a lowest level of 820 mm (32.3 in),[4] although the lowered suspension eliminates the ESA option. The standard electrically operated windscreen was adjustable across a range of heights.

The servo powered ABS brakes on the 2005 and 2006 models were partially integrated such that the rear brake pedal only applies the rear brake while the front brake lever applies both brakes. For the 2007 model year, servo assist was removed from the partially integrated brakes. A new, more advanced and lighter ABS system was produced by Continental Teves, which also produced the optional Automatic Stability Control (ASC),[5] in BMW's traction control system for motorcycles.[6] Just sayin.
 
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In addition to the design differences that Mark (Birfl) posted, assuming your brakes are well maintained and up original mechanical condition, it will come down to Honda's design and execution of that design for the bike's brakes. If you read bike reviews (and I only read MCN) they talk about one or two finger brakes on some sport bikes. And I'll go out on a limb and guess that cruiser type bikes require a whole handful of brake to stop quickly (maybe not on modern bikes).

It comes back to what the manufacturer wanted - and we can assume that sport bikes need to bleed off speed quicker when approaching a turn at high speed so want stronger brakes (i.e. one finger pressure will bleed off velocity quickly) whereas cruisers rarely push the speed envelope like crotch rocket riders. And I doubt entry level bikes will have sensitive brakes so new riders don't do stoppies or skid out the front end. Toss in the cost of high performance brake components and you have yet another reason why one bike will have excellent brakes and another not so great brakes. All bikes are a mix of compromises. You pick what you want and pay your money for that choice.
 
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