Went to check and Adjust shims last night. I found two of my cams are off 90 degree increments!!! intake is advanced around 6/9 degrees and exhaust is more like 10 retarded!! *** !!! I double checked my timing belt location,which i installed 3 weeks ago.. Timing lines line up! looked on web, st has 0,90,270,360 cam positions if im not mistaken.counted teeth and estimate each tooth is 3degrees,so im quessing someone missed it by 3 teeth!! Question , are shims soft or hardened??? i can stone a few thousands if theyre soft, but Ill grind them at work if they are hardened !! Thanks
Valve Adjustment
- Thread starter MattK
- Start date
if you could post some pictures of the cam timing inconsistencies it would help, just to verify you're interpreting things correctly. Not sure about the shim metallurgy, but I'd guess they're fairly hard given the application. I'd recommend replacing shims rather than re-machining, but that's your call. If they are hardened, it could be just surface hardening, and skimming them thinner could remove the surface hardening. Just speculating on that, don't really know.
Valve shims are definitely hardened and some could very well be case hardened, thus grinding them would be very, very risky. Borrow the shim kit and put the right ones in there.
John OoSTerhuis
Life Is Good!
Did you personally do the timing belt R&R?
Has the ST run since? If so, how is it?
How did you insure the cams' teeth were correctly reinstalled/meshed to the reduction gears' teeth?
Not sure I understand your description referencing 'degrees' but is it possible the #1 cylinder was not at TDC when the T1 mark was lined up at the start of the belt R&R, IOW the crankshaft needed to be turned another full revolution? Hmmm.... I may be way off base with that idea... I'll cogitate a bit more on this...
More info/pictures would help.
John
Has the ST run since? If so, how is it?
How did you insure the cams' teeth were correctly reinstalled/meshed to the reduction gears' teeth?
Not sure I understand your description referencing 'degrees' but is it possible the #1 cylinder was not at TDC when the T1 mark was lined up at the start of the belt R&R, IOW the crankshaft needed to be turned another full revolution? Hmmm.... I may be way off base with that idea... I'll cogitate a bit more on this...
More info/pictures would help.
John
If that were the case then the timing marks on the cam gears would have been 180 degrees off when doing the timing belt replacement, right? That would have been pretty obvious, so I'm guessing no on that. Also, just to be anal about it, the T1 mark is always TDC, what you meant to say is it was on the exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke.
I can't figure out how anyone could put the cams back in and be off by 3 teeth on two different cams during a valve adjustment though, that has me puzzled, and I'm not sure how the bike would even run in that condition. I'm waiting on pictures to tell more of the story.
Timing belt changes on my 1978 GL1000's taught me to be careful. With plugs out and the crank/cams aligned, one or all three would move when the belts were removed. Learned to highlight the marks with whiteout or white paint before removing the belts and verify prior to closing things back up. Re-confirmed with a valve clearance check. (Still suffering from OCD)
Carried those habits over to my ST1100 and had no trouble at all. Also relied heavily on the videos and advice available on this site.
Carried those habits over to my ST1100 and had no trouble at all. Also relied heavily on the videos and advice available on this site.
Im gonna try to post pics!! asap..Yes i did the belt inspection, it was fine but i put a new one in anyway! it lined up then and i double checked it last night! was good...im gonna take the cams off tonight,vale adjucstment. the way i figure it ,its only possible that the last person to take them out did misalignment!! Ive been looking for a missfire and i know i found somethin!! thanks ppl
My memory is weak, and don't have the manual in front of me now, but I think the alignment marks are on the other end of the cams. You might be able to use the end you've pictured as well, but that's not what I remember looking at when I did it last.
edit: here is a diagram showing the punch marks and lines, which aren't the same thing as the large cutouts you show in your pictures. Look at the other end of the cams.
edit: here is a diagram showing the punch marks and lines, which aren't the same thing as the large cutouts you show in your pictures. Look at the other end of the cams.
Last edited:
where dp you live in the chicago area, Im in the burbs
I think this was in reply to my last post, so let me clarify what I was trying to say. I wasn't referring to the timing belt gear timing marks, but rather the punch marks and lines on the cams themselves (see the circular inserts 1) and 6) in the picture I posted). The picture I posted just happened to have the timing belt info as well, but that wasn't my point, ignore the timing belt part.
Your pictures are of the opposite ends of the cams, which don't have any timing markings. Post pictures of the other end of the cams, so we can see where the timing marks are aligned.
John OoSTerhuis
Life Is Good!
Yes, thanks.
+1 Your belt can be installed just fine, but if you didn't reinstall the cams correctly....... The punch marks on the cam ends tell the story.
John
OK I HATE ASSUMING!!! checked marks from picture!! it lines up perfectly!! I assumed that motor firing order was based on 90 increments! the 2 banks/pairs arent 180 from another . timing marks line up,readjusting shims now!! thanks again ppl for your help/responses!!! Matt
John OoSTerhuis
Life Is Good!
The Honda Service Manual should be used when doing an important service like this, IMHO. There's lots of good valve clearance and shim R&R info here on ST-owners and also on ST-Riders.net
Here's a great worksheet to use when replacing shims (couldn't find it here), from the public ST1100 Archive Of Wisdom (AOW): http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=4727.0
The downloadable worksheets there are the current and correct versions.
John
Here's a great worksheet to use when replacing shims (couldn't find it here), from the public ST1100 Archive Of Wisdom (AOW): http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=4727.0
The downloadable worksheets there are the current and correct versions.
John
Last edited:
Since you brought it up the firing order is in increments of either 90 or 270 degrees.
90 degrees between 1 and 4,
then 270 between 4 and 3,
then 90 between 3 and 2,
then 270 between 2 and 1.
total is 720 degrees because its a four-stroke.
John OoSTerhuis
Life Is Good!
clip from an old poST of mine:
"Tip I've posted a number of times: measure in thousandths of an inch instead of millimeters. The shim increments are .025mm which is virtually the same as 1 thousandth of an inch (.001"). You can't adjust the clearance any finer than that. Look at the number stamped on the shim, consult the shim list .... and select one shim size [thinner] or thicker than that one for every thousandth of an inch you wish to change the clearance. KISS No need for any fancy math or spreadsheets."
This is the way a shop will do it.
List of all 69 Honda valve shims for ST1100/ST1300: http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=3481.0
HTH
John
"Tip I've posted a number of times: measure in thousandths of an inch instead of millimeters. The shim increments are .025mm which is virtually the same as 1 thousandth of an inch (.001"). You can't adjust the clearance any finer than that. Look at the number stamped on the shim, consult the shim list .... and select one shim size [thinner] or thicker than that one for every thousandth of an inch you wish to change the clearance. KISS No need for any fancy math or spreadsheets."
This is the way a shop will do it.
List of all 69 Honda valve shims for ST1100/ST1300: http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=3481.0
HTH
John
Last edited:
John OoSTerhuis
Life Is Good!
For those still compelled to work the math, metric or SAE, here's some downloadable debugged, accurate spreadsheets for ST1100 shim R&R calculation (see posts 7 and 8): https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?113353-Valve-Shim-Calculator-(Excel)-Metric-and-Imperial
Do the simple method above (for grins, also measure in mm) and then use the spreadsheet to confirm the shim size and ease your mind.
Edit: I just tried to update the downloadable files in the link above but when I tried to upload an .xlsx file version of the ST1100 Excel worksheet the forum wouldn't let me (Invalid File). Mods help....?
In the meantime, email me for a copy.
John
Do the simple method above (for grins, also measure in mm) and then use the spreadsheet to confirm the shim size and ease your mind.
Edit: I just tried to update the downloadable files in the link above but when I tried to upload an .xlsx file version of the ST1100 Excel worksheet the forum wouldn't let me (Invalid File). Mods help....?
In the meantime, email me for a copy.
John
Last edited:
John is there a chance for a valve check and adjustment tech event in the Midwest. I sure would like to learn with some experienced people present, rather than try it cold.