Counter Steering Question

Joined
Apr 2, 2012
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185
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Council Bluffs IA
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ST1300
I think I have developed some bad habits. There are times when the road turns when I have not been paying attention or looking at scenery ...I guess. I immediately have to push the handlebars for a quick turn with the road. So far I have made all the turns with the counter steering. But what I notice, is that in those times I end up on the high side and the bike tilted low. I have watched over 2 dozen videos on this. I know it is a wake up call to be more attentive to riding so that my body goes with the tilt of the bike. My question is, Is that a natural result of last second counter-steering turns? Or should I be able to shift my butt in those last seconds too?
 
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You might not have time to actually shift your butt but you should be able to drop your inside elbow and move your head to the inside edge of the windshield. Depending on your speed, if you just counter steer and push your bike down to the inside, you run the risk of not only grinding your pegs, but running out of clearance. Go out on your bicycle and try making some turns leaning the wrong way. You'll find you have to lean the bike WAY over to the inside to make the turn. That's what you're describing doing on your bike. The faster you go, the more you have to push the bike down to make the turn. It's always better to shift your weight more than you need, the counter steer and pull the bike down to you as required. The more you hang, the more margin you have to pull the bike down and adjust to make the radius of the turn.

Personally I tend to shift my weight more than required and keep the bike standing up more than most people I ride with. As a result I rarely grind my pegs. I prefer having that extra margin of error when i get into the twisties.
 
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Kitchener Ontario
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Pete, I know (from experience) exactly what you mean. Ever since I hit a rock I have been trying to develop my 'split second manoeuvres' and practise frequently using potholes, manhole covers and the like. The problem with doing 'push steering only' is that the attitude of the bike changes significantly but the 'line' only changes marginally. One thing I have been doing with interesting results has to do with the pegs. I read somewhere that I should try to keep my weight on the outside peg when cornering. However, while riding if I push down on the outside peg it doesn't really seem to have an effect. I have found however, if I 'unweight' the inside peg, the line through the corner develops naturally and without effort. I have no idea if this accepted practise but is only something I am working with as I learn. I can see a track day sometime in my future to develop some cornering skills. Maybe next year we could set up a RTTD?
 
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STmark1300
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I knew it was wrong, and I knew I wanted to address it. I don't have many twisties here in the heartland like back in PA. I know what I must do. Whenever I practice the counter steering I must as well practice the leaning that goes with it. Kind of a daaa moment. I think I just got lazy over the years. The more I practice it with the leaning, the better I will do. Thanks.
 
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Norfolk, VA
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2019 Goldwing Tour
It's a natural reaction of the bike and your body position.
Think of it kind of like a swerve, the bike reacts faster than your body does. Normal.
 
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Exeter UK
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Pan 1300A
:slv13:Counter steering is more useful on a lighter bike..You are using it to get out of trouble and it works...so don't worry ...as an ex racer counter steering is used a lot as the corners you know and are trying to get round them at the highest speed...With the Pan its better to stay with the bike and steer as usual and lean with the bike...I only use C/S if I am in a hurry and know the road therefor I go with the bike and don't hang off...The only time I hang off the bike is in bad wet or slippery road conditions where keeping the bike upright as possible.......But you already know this..
 
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I read somewhere that I should try to keep my weight on the outside peg when cornering.
I've heard this one too?? The only explanation I can come up with this one is if you 'push' against the outside peg I <think> you can force your weight/body to the inside. It kind of gets you mentally shifting your body, head, inside shoulder, etc, in the proper direction. At least that's the feeling I get when I imagine that move.....
 

ReSTored

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Have you watched Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist" and "Twist of the Wrist 2" instructional videos? I've watched parts of each on Youtube and they seem to lay out turning methodologies very well. Some of the actors are a bit corny and the one video features an ST1300 carving corners pretty fast, well worth the watch.

It's very easy to get sloppy on most Ontario roads as, generally speaking, they are very undemanding technically at legal speeds and even slightly above. I try to follow proper lines and turning techniques all the time as it becomes a muscle memory thing when riding more demanding roads in Ontario and in the US.
 

ST1100Y

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There are times when the road turns when I have not been paying attention or looking at scenery...
Seems the actual problem is not being focussed...
If your attention would be ahead where it belongs, you wouldn't miss the turn entrance, thus no stress/hustle making it through...

Such happens to me when I'm too slow, begin to stroll along and my view, mind and attention start to wander... bad! As by Murphy's Law this is exactly the moment something happens ahead...
Debris, gravel, oil spill, tar snakes... to screw things up even more, am I then in too high gear, lugging the engine, etc... and then that nice, smooth turn suddenly has like 6 corners in it LOL! ;-)
My personal "cure" of some sort: attend some MSL and push the envelope a little, cause "keeping the cable tensioned" is keeping me focussed on the important stuff: the road layout and surface ahead.

Hence my dislike of group rides, caravans can't move along fluently...
 

SupraSabre

48 Years of SoCal Lane Splitting/Commuting-Retired
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Ever since buying my first ST1300, I have found that they get me out of trouble a lot better than I get into it!

There have been a number of times that I find myself coming too hot into a curve, and every time the ST1300 delivers me out of it. Most of the time it just takes a little more lean by counter steering! A few times I have dragged the rear brake just a little to scrub off some speed, and then add the counter steering to it, it goes through just fine, my heart is pumping a little faster, but the bike did it's job!

I love this bike because of this. :bl13:

I very seldom find that, other than scraping the front on my boot, I'm scraping pegs!
 
OP
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Adam, when I practice I will definitely practice the shoulder movement as well as the foot movement. Opposite foot, outside of the peg. Sounds like it will help.
 
OP
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The problem I see with going to the high side is the bike can bottom out, or you run out of space to turn. If it works you, great. It scared the crap out of me, and I didn't feel in control.
 
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I am always amazed at the misunderstanding of how a motorcycle (or any other two wheeled device) turns. Research......
 

ibike2havefun

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I thought that the mass of the bike and the gravitational pull would remain constant.
They do. However, the center of mass (or center of gravity) is no longer directly above and in line with the wheels, so part of its effect is "diverted" from pressing the tires straight down. In the crude illustration below:

* = center of mass / center of gravity of bike and rider
[X] is the tire
| is the line of force / weight. The length of the line is proportional to the force.

When riding upright, everything lines up:

*
|
|
|
|
V
[X]

When leaning in a turn, the c/g or c/m moves off the vertical line that passes through the contact patch. Since the distance between the center of gravity and the contact patch is fixed it forms the hypotenuse of the triangle implied in the diagram below (the line directly connecting * and [X]).

*
|
|
|
V<--[X]

Since the force of gravity always runs between the center of the earth and the center of gravity of an object, moving the center of gravity such that the line no longer passes through the tire reduces the amount of the weight that is applied to the tire, by the difference in length of the vertical lines in the two diagrams.

Or so I believe I learned in my physics classes, too many decades ago to admit.

I like a rather large safety margin for stuff that I can't see ahead
I'm right with you on that point. I'm about the slowest rider through curves and corners. I have a morbid fear of a washout and low-side, and even worse of a high-side get-off.
 
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ibike2havefun

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The issue that I have is that if you could put the wheels on weighing scales and measure the weight upright and then compare it with the weight when the bike is at an angle, then they would have to be the same.
Not so, I think. "Weight" is actually a synonym for "force" in this case, and is defined as mass times the force of acceleration (in this case, gravity). It is a mistake to conflate "mass" and "weight". That is why you weigh less on the moon: your mass is the same but the moon does not have as much gravity so you exert less force on it.

Mass is a constant but as I think we have just agreed the "amount" of gravity that gives the wheel (and the entire assembly of rider and machine) its weight is diminished; some of that force (weight) is no longer directed at the contact patch.

In the extreme case where the bike is lying on its side, as for example after a tip-over, would you agree that the tire is in fact exerting zero force on the ground at what was the contact patch when the wheel was upright? The mass has not changed but none of the force of gravity is being exerted to hold the tire (at the contact patch) to the ground.

If you could lean the bike and measure the force exerted by the tires (or "tyres" as you traditionalists spell it.. :) ) while riding in a straight line you would, I think, see a diminution of the force of the tires on the ground.

Adding a change in direction brings into play another set of forces, parallel to the ground rather than perpendicular to it. When that set of forces exceeds the downward force of the effective weight plus the intrinsic coefficient of friction or adhesion between rubber and road, bad things tend to happen...
 
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