Counter Steering Question

OP
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I have had almost a year of practice. Adam and beeker were very helpful. What I have learned, is there is no substitute for paying attention. Second is there are two ways of turning....counter steering and 'counter weight. BOTH are necessary....Counter weight with my butt and knee is necessary and counter steering is important. Considering both gives me a heads up. Counter steering without counter weight will get your pegs scraped or worse.
 
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I have had almost a year of practice. Adam and beeker were very helpful. What I have learned, is there is no substitute for paying attention. Second is there are two ways of turning....counter steering and 'counter weight. BOTH are necessary....Counter weight with my butt and knee is necessary and counter steering is important. Considering both gives me a heads up. Counter steering without counter weight will get your pegs scraped or worse.
"Counter weighting" is usually meant as 'lean OUT' or to the higher side of the bike. That will cause more lean and more scraping.
 
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Counter weighting is used in slow speed maneuvers. Shifting your weight to the opposite direction that you are turning. Counter steering is used at speeds above @ 12mph. Press right go right press left go left.
 
OP
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Counter weighting is used in slow speed maneuvers. Shifting your weight to the opposite direction that you are turning. Counter steering is used at speeds above @ 12mph. Press right go right press left go left.
I have counter steering down. I thought I was helping myself by adding counter weighting. Counter steering is certainly easier. I was thinking of the MC racers, don't they lean weight out and counter steer?
 
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I have counter steering down. I thought I was helping myself by adding counter weighting. Counter steering is certainly easier. I was thinking of the MC racers, don't they lean weight out and counter steer?
Dirt trackers do, road racers lean IN to reduce lean angle and increase traction and ground clearance.

 
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What I'm wondering is, how many horses are dead as a result of this thread?!! The OP was merely relating how his lack of attention on the road was causing him some grief when he got into a curve. There's only one cure for that. Pay attention and prepare for every curve - in your own riding style - BEFORE you get into it. Not everyone is, or wants to be, Ricky Racer out there.

Here's something no one has brought up about steering around a curve though, the actual term for how we do it. It's called gyroscopic precession. Understand that and you will understand why we push left - go left and push right - go right.
Gyroscopic precession-PERFECT!:bow1:
 

T_C

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It's called gyroscopic precession. Understand that and you will understand why we push left - go left and push right - go right.
Umm... nope... Precession makes boomerangs work and helicopter auto-correct with a rigid rotor and gyroscope effect helps a bike stay upright; making bikes turn it would be minimal effect.
 
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I wrote this in the Nighthawk Forum for a new-to-the-street former dirt-bike rider:

A bike turns by leaning, which means the center of gravity (both of the bike and the rider combined) is no longer directly over the tire contact patches. However, the bike does not flop left or right over the tires; instead, the bike rolls around the center of gravity, approximately where the top of the engine is. The tires move to one side while the rider moves to the other side.​
What controls a bike's pathway around a turn are the speed and the angle of the center of gravity relative to the tires' contact. You can't change the radius of the curve, so you have to control the lean. The greater the lean, the faster you can take a given turn. Some curves change radius, so you have to be able to change your lean angle mid-turn. This is where counter-steering comes in.​
Years ago, the Honda ELF racing team tried moving the fuel tank under the engine, to lower the center of gravity, but the riders hated it. The bike handled worse, not better. The bike tried to pivot around the center of gravity, where the main mass was located, but it was unnaturally low, and affected cornering negatively. The next season, they moved it back up and everyone was happy.​
On the street, counter-steering is control. Counter-steering is controlling the lean by applying twisting pressure to the handlebars, which steers the front tire out from under the center of gravity to initiate a turn, and then back under the center of gravity to straighten out. You can also adjust the turning of the bike in the middle of a turn, changing the turn radius and staying in your lane.​
A bike can not be ridden without counter-steering, but many riders don't realize they're doing it. They believe they turn by leaning themselves and the bike, and the steering just follows. If you consciously steer the handlebars, you have much more control. You can control the lean of the bike independently of your body, and change turn angle and direction much more quickly.​
If you watch road racing, especially through the S-curves, you'll notice the bikes flip-flop side-to-side at a rate that is impossible to do without counter-steering. When the racers hang off on the inside of a turn, the bike wants to turn more sharply, because the center of gravity is farther away from the tire contact patches. They're actually using counter-steering to reduce the turn angle.​
They hang off so the center of gravity is farther away from the contact patches, so they can take the turn faster, but the bike itself is able to lean less than it otherwise would if they sat at the same angle of lean as the bike. This is done so the bike's hard parts don't contact the pavement and lever the tires off the pavement, which would reduce traction and cause the bike to slide off the track.​
There are a few things you can do to maximize your riding skills. Make sure your tires are in good condition and properly inflated. Take your time and learn both your limits and the bike's limits. Pay attention to the condition of the road you're riding, especially gravel, grit, grass, water, oil, etc. Make sure you're not too tired, hungry, angry, or distracted to ride safely.​
As mentioned above, you will ride the bike in whatever direction you're looking, so look far around the curve with your head and eyes horizontal, not leaned over with the bike and your body. If you look off the road, expect to go there. Also, find an empty parking lot and practice slow maneuvering. Work on slow starts, turning from a stop, U-turns, figure-8's, panic-braking, etc.​
It takes years of experience to become a proficient rider, so be easy on yourself. I have been riding for over 45 years, and I'm still learning. I have been riding my NH750 for years, and riding it is almost 100% instinctive. I just recently got an ST1100, and I ride it almost like a beginner, almost starting over. I have to learn its handling characteristics just like I did those of the NH.​
In tighter and/or higher-speed curves, it's good to brake and downshift before you enter the turn, so you finish slowing by the time you're in the turn, and you should actually be accelerating through the turn. You should be in a low-enough gear that you can use the throttle to control your speed, whether accelerating or slowing using engine braking, and not the brakes.​
Not a crazy amount of engine RPM, but in the 3000 to 5000 RPM range, depending on your speed and the curve. Just as the brakes shift weight onto the front wheel (which is why the front is a disc, and you should practice and learn how to brake hard with it), accelerating shifts more weight onto the rear wheel, increasing its traction and improving handling and control.​
 

woodybelle

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A bike can not be ridden without counter-steering, but many riders don't realize they're doing it.
I believe it was Wayne Rainey that rode an entire Moto GP circuit with his hands tied behind his back. So my question is was he counter steering without touching the bars?
 
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Any time you can cause a movement in the steering head you cause steering. Moving your weight around just causes the steering head to "flex" enough to turn. Nothing happens unless the steering head moves. If you take a bicycle and weld the steering head solid, it can not be ridden at all......
Racers, They are trying to gain additional lean angle to to move through a turn faster. So as you move the CB, CG you can get more corner per mph. This is a very good thing to know, so if start into a turn your thinking "oh shiaat" get the weight on the inside of the turn. If you've never done it you'd be surprised at how easy the turn becomes.
 
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So my question is was he counter steering without touching the bars?
Basically, yes. When you lean a bike manually, the front wheel "flops" in that direction, which attempts to steer the front wheel back under the center of gravity. That's why an unmanned bike will tend to roll straight.

If you have access to a bicycle, roll it around while holding just the seat. The first time I rode a bicycle after discovering counter-steering, I tried it; it works. A bike rider counter-steers whether aware of it or not.
 
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Believe me, I'm all about counter-steering, ever since I discovered it after about three years of riding, and I've been riding for about 45.5 years now. I have taught it to many others, except for a couple of Harley riders who insist that they steer by leaning.
 
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I have taught it to many others, except for a couple of Harley riders who insist that they steer by leaning.
I've always thought that counter steering was simply the most efficient way to get the lean initiated at higher speeds, where gyroscopic forces make it harder to just lean the bike over without counter steering. counter steering initiates leaning and leaning causes a certain amount of counter steering even if you're not trying, so they're kinda related in that sense. But if you look at a race bike cornering hard they're not doing more counter steering, they're doing more leaning.
 
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I counter steering initiates leaning and leaning causes a certain amount of counter steering even if you're not trying, so they're kinda related in that sense.
Agreed, but my point was that they resist trying to steer this way. Counter-steering occurs all the time,even when the rider is unaware of it, and how much more control you have when done consciously.

But if you look at a race bike cornering hard they're not doing more counter steering, they're doing more leaning.
Actually, when banked over hard, racers are using counter-steering to reduce the amount of lean that the rider's shifted weight would otherwise cause. They're actually steering the tires' contact patches back under the combined (rider and bike) center of gravity a little bit.
 
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Actually, when banked over hard, racers are using counter-steering to reduce the amount of lean that the rider's shifted weight would otherwise cause. They're actually steering the tires' contact patches back under the combined (rider and bike) center of gravity a little bit.
You know, I was wondering about that as I typed it, regarding how much of the cornering force was due to the lean and how much was due to the counter steering. I originally thought the lean was the dominant force, but I know from my own experience that you keep constant pressure on the bars even while leaning way off the bike, and I was probably underestimating how much force I apply to the bars at that time (I'm talking about sport bike riding on a track, not the ST). I googled something where a racer claimed the lean was 10% and the counter steering was 90% which surprised me a little, but I can believe it.

I can't remember where I saw it demonstrated, but its probably on the web somewhere. Its a video of a bicycle that was designed with a geared steering stem so if you turn the bars left the front wheel goes right and vice-versa. Nobody could ride it, presumably because we all counter steer without realizing it, and since the bars on that bike were reversed relative to counter steering, it was very difficult to maintain the proper turning radius or even keep it in a straight line.
 

GGely

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And here it is...

I find this video and the concept behind it extremely interesting. Perception and knowledge are interesting concepts...
 
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