Counter Steering Question

OP
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You mean you applied both front and rear brakes to scrub off a little speed.....linked braking system, remember?
How does the linked brakes change things. If I just hit the handbrake, is that going to give me good results?
 
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How does the linked brakes change things. If I just hit the handbrake, is that going to give me good results?
Simply means that no matter which lever you use, your applying both front and rear brakes.
The hand lever applies the front brakes, which operates the smc, which operates the rear brakes....
The foot lever applies the middle piston on all three brake calipers....
My comment was meant light hearted and in jest since this topic has been beat to death (use your search)
 
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I took high school physics as well and while it may not be a force when applying the laws of motion it seems to be when on a carnival ride, and if in reality it is just your body wanting to continue in a straight line what difference does it make?
I taught both middle and high school physics and it caused a huge amount of confusion that had to be overcome. I investigated traffic collisions for 26 years and most officers haven't taken even high school physics, and that imaginary force lead to erroneous conclusions which had to be corrected. I'm now teaching motorcycle lessons to beginning students and the confusion shows up there as well on occasion. Momentum (or inertia if your prefer) is 90 degrees from the erroneously perceived centrifugal force. As you mentioned, most of the time it doesn't make a practical difference but when trying to explain what is happening, it does make a difference.
 
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Keeping to the KISS method....how many of you folks having trouble with counter steering grip the tank with your knees while riding?
I see folks all the time, complaining about steering issues, or tire issues, riding with their knees flying out in the breeze! This means they are simply sitting on top of the bike with very little control.
Those of you who have raced dirt bikes, know what I am talking about. I used to wear the paint right off the side of my dirt bike tanks from gripping them.
Gives you ALOT more control and feel, as well as taking unwanted weight and pressure off the bars.
Try it, you may be surprised.
 
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Keeping to the KISS method....how many of you folks having trouble with counter steering grip the tank with your knees while riding?
I see folks all the time, complaining about steering issues, or tire issues, riding with their knees flying out in the breeze! This means they are simply sitting on top of the bike with very little control.
Those of you who have raced dirt bikes, know what I am talking about. I used to wear the paint right off the side of my dirt bike tanks from gripping them.
Gives you ALOT more control and feel, as well as taking unwanted weight and pressure off the bars.
Try it, you may be surprised.

I do. I also use my knee and the tank to flip myself from one side of the seat to the other.
My first centrifugal force lesson came from my mini bike 50 years ago. And those spinning things at every school playground of course. I admit I am not sure what Jonz is going on about. I never took physics.
 

Gerhard

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I admit I am not sure what Jonz is going on about. I never took physics.
Ok no teacher here and a fuzzy memory, but basics that you need to know is that you want to continue in a straight line, so when going around a curve it feels like you are being pushed out of the circle but the reality is that you want to continue straight. The end result is that you have to force yourself to travel around the circle, the faster your speed the greater the force you have to overcome. I really believe in day to day life it makes no difference if you believe that the real force is acting on you or that the imaginary force of the black arrow is.

Gerhard



 
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Ok no teacher here and a fuzzy memory, but basics that you need to know is that you want to continue in a straight line, so when going around a curve it feels like you are being pushed out of the circle but the reality is that you want to continue straight. The end result is that you have to force yourself to travel around the circle, the faster your speed the greater the force you have to overcome. I really believe in day to day life it makes no difference if you believe that the real force is acting on you or that the imaginary force of the black arrow is.

Gerhard



That was an excellent description of why centrifugal isn't "real", but you REALLY feel it.

And I know I'm being pedantic, but I don't like it when people say centrifugal force isn't real. What they should say is that it isn't a real force.
 
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What I'm wondering is, how many horses are dead as a result of this thread?!! The OP was merely relating how his lack of attention on the road was causing him some grief when he got into a curve. There's only one cure for that. Pay attention and prepare for every curve - in your own riding style - BEFORE you get into it. Not everyone is, or wants to be, Ricky Racer out there.

Here's something no one has brought up about steering around a curve though, the actual term for how we do it. It's called gyroscopic precession. Understand that and you will understand why we push left - go left and push right - go right.
 
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Ok no teacher here and a fuzzy memory, but basics that you need to know is that you want to continue in a straight line, so when going around a curve it feels like you are being pushed out of the circle but the reality is that you want to continue straight. The end result is that you have to force yourself to travel around the circle, the faster your speed the greater the force you have to overcome. I really believe in day to day life it makes no difference if you believe that the real force is acting on you or that the imaginary force of the black arrow is.

Gerhard



Yes of course the red arrow is the direction you fly when you let go of the playground turntable. I concur..for what that's worth.
 
OP
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The OP was merely relating how his lack of attention on the road was causing him some grief when he got into a curve.
Yes, my question was answered some time ago. I have actually been out twice practicing. So I am good. But you all are welcome to keep the discussion going. This is all over my head.
 
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Here's something no one has brought up about steering around a curve though, the actual term for how we do it. It's called gyroscopic precession. Understand that and you will understand why we push left - go left and push right - go right.
According to Wikipedia gyroscopic precession only plays a small part in countersteering compared to the force resulting from the out-tracking of the front wheel as we countersteer. Gyroscopic precession is more important in racing as the resulting force causing the bike to lean is immediate, however much smaller than countersteering.
 
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Try this experiment with your pedal cycle - the ST is too heavy!

After removing the front wheel, hold it by the axle - on both sides (...between your arms...), so it's vertical and can spin freely. Sit on a swivel chair with feet up and get someone to spin the wheel as if you were travelling forward. Try tipping and steering the wheel and then come back here and explain the reaction.......

It's fun...

Roger
 

T_C

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According to Wikipedia gyroscopic precession...
Be careful , remember Wikipedia can be wrote by anyone. I read once that 80% of what you read there is not true, according to a study by Benjamin Franklin. :D

Helicopters (esp. Lockheed rigid rotor), boomerangs, airplanes with rotary engines, I can see gyroscopic precession having a major impact.
Motorcycle steering, not so much.
 
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According to Wikipedia gyroscopic precession only plays a small part in countersteering compared to the force resulting from the out-tracking of the front wheel as we countersteer. Gyroscopic precession is more important in racing as the resulting force causing the bike to lean is immediate, however much smaller than countersteering.
Did you ever have one of those little string powered gyroscopes as a kid? Just as Roger is alluding to in his post about the spinning bicycle wheel, you might have found how it was difficult to change the attitude of that gyroscope in space, as it resisted going in the direction you were trying to turn it. The front wheel (and back also) are very effective as gyroscopes at speed and the action we call counter steering is the method we employ to initiate the precession force we need to overcome the gyroscopic effect of the wheel. That much is not rocket science. You absolutely will never get a heavy motorcycle to turn right or left, at speed, without first using counter steering. Hanging off, or otherwise redistributing your weight will add to the lean angles possible, but you won't be leaning at all without having used gyroscopic precession to start the process.

On another unrelated to this steering topic note, our bikes also have another built in gyroscope in the engine. That heavy rotating crankshaft sets up a very effective gyroscopic effect that is quite evident at RPM's slightly over idle. Anyone who wants to challenge themselves to see how slow they can go without losing balance, only needs to keep the revs up a bit while slipping the clutch. The gyro that is your crankshaft will help to keep the bike from falling over at very slow speed.
 

T_C

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Anyone who wants to challenge themselves to see how slow they can go without losing balance, only needs to keep the revs up a bit while slipping the clutch. The gyro that is your crankshaft will help to keep the bike from falling over at very slow speed.
Would be effective and a good reason to have the engine turning the more traditional direction than the Honda ST's do. But the in line rotation only stops us from turning while moving forward, will not be not stopping us from falling over.
 
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But the in line rotation only stops us from turning while moving forward, will not be not stopping us from falling over.
I guess you have never tried it to actually feel the effect. I'm not saying you won't fall over at some point, for the ST isn't like that new Honda that simply WON'T fall over, but that heavy crankshaft rotating at about 1500 rpm will help keep balance at very slow speed.
 
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I was in a situation once on my 69 CB750 where I was riding next to a friend and got onto the yellow line that marks the edge of the pavement on a right hand curve. No way could I counter steer, there wasn't room being on the cusp of a six inch drop off. The only thing I could do was roll on the throttle and let the bike drift back to the safe zone. It worked that time.
 

T_C

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I guess you have never tried it to actually feel the effect. I'm not saying you won't fall over at some point, for the ST isn't like that new Honda that simply WON'T fall over, but that heavy crankshaft rotating at about 1500 rpm will help keep balance at very slow speed.

You cant feel the effect of a gyroscope when it is turning on an axis inline with the movement. Rotating the ST (falling) from side to side (same axis as the crank) will only speed up or slow down the effective speed of the gyroscope.

Try this.. grab a small motor, (say a dustbuster vac), turn it on. Rotate your hand and it inline with the core of the motor. No effect. Now rotate it left/right or up/down. You'll feel the gyroscope effect in the resistance of the movement and the precession taking place displacing the force 90° later. If you do the bicycle wheel experiment this would be the same thing as twisting the axle. Spin the axle all you want, it's not changing the plane of the wheel. The gyro is not effective in that rotational direction.

If our crankshaft was running side to side, or up and down, it would be a different story.
 
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