That's an excellent video.
I think I've encountered that pedestrian at 1:46.
I think I've encountered that pedestrian at 1:46.
Counter Steering Question
- Thread starter STmark1300
- Start date
I remember a similar video. It showed that kids adopted almost right away, while adults had to work at it for quite a while.
Added: Of course, I posted before watching the video. That wasn't the same one, but similar.
It shows that the instinct is there that we turn by steering the front wheel out from, and back under the center of gravity.
Last edited:
OP
OP
STmark1300
Ron
It would be interesting to see what a counter-steering motorcyclist would do with it.
I posted this in the Nighthawk Forum in response to a new-to-street-riding post:
Welcome to the forum and to street riding. I'll add my two or three cents' worth:
You must learn to both trust and mis-trust the limits of tire traction. Unlike dirt riding, on the street, you control your bike by maintaining traction, not breaking it. Many riders run off the road on the outside of curves because they start into a turn too fast or think they're going too fast, and don't have the knowledge or the mental discipline to turn more sharply in the middle of the turn.
A bike turns by leaning, which means the center of gravity (both of the bike and the rider combined) is no longer directly over the tire contact patches. However, the bike does not flop left or right over the tires; instead, the bike rolls around the center of gravity, approximately where the top of the engine is. The tires move to one side while the rider moves to the other side.
What controls a bike's pathway around a turn are the speed and the angle of the center of gravity relative to the tires' contact patches. You can't change the radius of the curve, so you have to control the lean. The greater the lean, the faster you can take a given turn. Some curves change radius, so you have to be able to change your lean angle mid-turn. This is where counter-steering comes in.
Years ago, the Honda ELF racing team tried moving the fuel tank under the engine, to lower the center of gravity, but the riders hated it. The bike handled worse, not better. The bike tried to pivot around the center of gravity, where the main mass was located, but it was unnaturally low, and affected cornering negatively. The next season, they moved it back up and everyone was happy.
On the street, counter-steering is control. Counter-steering is controlling the lean by applying twisting pressure to the handlebars, which steers the front tire out from under the center of gravity to initiate a turn, and then back under the center of gravity to straighten out. You can also adjust the turning of the bike in the middle of a turn, changing the turn radius and staying in your lane.
A bike can not be ridden without counter-steering, but many riders don't realize they're doing it. They believe they turn by leaning themselves and the bike, and the steering just follows. If you consciously steer the handlebars, you have much more control. You can control the lean of the bike independently of your body, and change turn angle and direction much more quickly.
If you watch road racing, especially through the S-curves, you'll notice the bikes flip-flop side-to-side at a rate that is impossible to do without counter-steering. When the racers hang off on the inside of a turn, the bike wants to turn more sharply, because the center of gravity is farther away from the tire contact patches. They're actually using counter-steering to reduce the turn angle.
They hang off so the center of gravity is farther away from the contact patches, so they can take the turn faster, but the bike itself is able to lean less than it otherwise would if they sat at the same angle of lean as the bike. This is done so the bike's hard parts don't contact the pavement and lever the tires off the pavement, which would reduce traction and cause the bike to slide off the track.
There are a few things you can do to maximize your riding skills. Make sure your tires are in good condition and properly inflated. Take your time and learn both your limits and the bike's limits. Pay attention to the condition of the road you're riding, especially gravel, grit, grass, water, oil, etc. Make sure you're not too tired, hungry, angry, or distracted to ride safely.
As mentioned above, you will ride the bike in whatever direction you're looking, so look far around the curve with your head and eyes horizontal, not leaned over with the bike and your body. If you look off the road, expect to go there. Also, find an empty parking lot and practice slow maneuvering. Work on slow starts, turning from a stop, U-turns, figure-8's, panic-braking, etc.
It takes years of experience to become a proficient rider, so be easy on yourself. I have been riding for over 45 years, and I'm still learning. I have been riding my NH750 for years, and riding it is almost 100% instinctive. I just recently got an ST1100, and I ride it almost like a beginner, almost starting over. I have to learn its handling characteristics just like I did those of the NH.
Welcome to the forum and to street riding. I'll add my two or three cents' worth:
You must learn to both trust and mis-trust the limits of tire traction. Unlike dirt riding, on the street, you control your bike by maintaining traction, not breaking it. Many riders run off the road on the outside of curves because they start into a turn too fast or think they're going too fast, and don't have the knowledge or the mental discipline to turn more sharply in the middle of the turn.
A bike turns by leaning, which means the center of gravity (both of the bike and the rider combined) is no longer directly over the tire contact patches. However, the bike does not flop left or right over the tires; instead, the bike rolls around the center of gravity, approximately where the top of the engine is. The tires move to one side while the rider moves to the other side.
What controls a bike's pathway around a turn are the speed and the angle of the center of gravity relative to the tires' contact patches. You can't change the radius of the curve, so you have to control the lean. The greater the lean, the faster you can take a given turn. Some curves change radius, so you have to be able to change your lean angle mid-turn. This is where counter-steering comes in.
Years ago, the Honda ELF racing team tried moving the fuel tank under the engine, to lower the center of gravity, but the riders hated it. The bike handled worse, not better. The bike tried to pivot around the center of gravity, where the main mass was located, but it was unnaturally low, and affected cornering negatively. The next season, they moved it back up and everyone was happy.
On the street, counter-steering is control. Counter-steering is controlling the lean by applying twisting pressure to the handlebars, which steers the front tire out from under the center of gravity to initiate a turn, and then back under the center of gravity to straighten out. You can also adjust the turning of the bike in the middle of a turn, changing the turn radius and staying in your lane.
A bike can not be ridden without counter-steering, but many riders don't realize they're doing it. They believe they turn by leaning themselves and the bike, and the steering just follows. If you consciously steer the handlebars, you have much more control. You can control the lean of the bike independently of your body, and change turn angle and direction much more quickly.
If you watch road racing, especially through the S-curves, you'll notice the bikes flip-flop side-to-side at a rate that is impossible to do without counter-steering. When the racers hang off on the inside of a turn, the bike wants to turn more sharply, because the center of gravity is farther away from the tire contact patches. They're actually using counter-steering to reduce the turn angle.
They hang off so the center of gravity is farther away from the contact patches, so they can take the turn faster, but the bike itself is able to lean less than it otherwise would if they sat at the same angle of lean as the bike. This is done so the bike's hard parts don't contact the pavement and lever the tires off the pavement, which would reduce traction and cause the bike to slide off the track.
There are a few things you can do to maximize your riding skills. Make sure your tires are in good condition and properly inflated. Take your time and learn both your limits and the bike's limits. Pay attention to the condition of the road you're riding, especially gravel, grit, grass, water, oil, etc. Make sure you're not too tired, hungry, angry, or distracted to ride safely.
As mentioned above, you will ride the bike in whatever direction you're looking, so look far around the curve with your head and eyes horizontal, not leaned over with the bike and your body. If you look off the road, expect to go there. Also, find an empty parking lot and practice slow maneuvering. Work on slow starts, turning from a stop, U-turns, figure-8's, panic-braking, etc.
It takes years of experience to become a proficient rider, so be easy on yourself. I have been riding for over 45 years, and I'm still learning. I have been riding my NH750 for years, and riding it is almost 100% instinctive. I just recently got an ST1100, and I ride it almost like a beginner, almost starting over. I have to learn its handling characteristics just like I did those of the NH.
GGely
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Great point about almost starting over on the ST, Larry. Years ago, when I was flying light aircraft, I remember a well seasoned pilot telling me that aircraft are like people. All different, in every way imaginable and over time I’ve learned that this applies to dogs, cats, kids as well as motorcycles.
Regarding motorcycle handling theory, so far my go to text book on the subject is Lee Park’s book, Total Control. Although it’s biased to the track, there’s lots of great infirmation there.
There’s even a section on being a good passenger, which I had my oldest grandson read and reread. He’s my wrenching and riding buddy so it’s important that he understand the issues at hand and, so far, he’s the best passenger I’ve ever had on the back of one of my bikes.
G
Regarding motorcycle handling theory, so far my go to text book on the subject is Lee Park’s book, Total Control. Although it’s biased to the track, there’s lots of great infirmation there.
There’s even a section on being a good passenger, which I had my oldest grandson read and reread. He’s my wrenching and riding buddy so it’s important that he understand the issues at hand and, so far, he’s the best passenger I’ve ever had on the back of one of my bikes.
G
But if you look at a race bike cornering hard they're not doing more counter steering, they're doing more leaning.
Sort of... they used counter-steering to lean the bike over while leaning to the inside themselves. And they used counter-steering to straighten back up.
Counter-steering is not an option. It's ALWAYS used whether we realize it or not. It's not even something we learn, it's just something we do. It's how 2 wheeled vehicles turn at any speed higher than a walking speed.
Sort of... they used counter-steering to lean the bike over while leaning to the inside themselves. And they used counter-steering to straighten back up.
Counter-steering is not an option. It's ALWAYS used whether we realize it or not. It's not even something we learn, it's just something we do. It's how 2 wheeled vehicles turn at any speed higher than a walking speed.
Just wondering here.....What if the video producers had simply welded the bike's steering straight ahead? Same flopover effect, I suspect. Point is, we don't lean/counter steer on an either/or basis.
Thanx. I have since gotten more proficient on the ST, to the point where it's just about instinctive. Raising the rear ride height about 1/2" made a great difference in steering ease. The bike seemed to resist leaning until I did that. It now leans almost as readily as the Nighthawk.
A couple of good reads on counter steering and how a motorcycle turns.
http://koczarski.com/Motorcycles/Counter streeing.html
http://koczarski.com/Motorcycles/MotoGeometry/Info.htm
http://koczarski.com/Motorcycles/Counter streeing.html
http://koczarski.com/Motorcycles/MotoGeometry/Info.htm