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Kevcules
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Thanks.....What would be my target oil level?
Front shocks removal
- Thread starter Kevcules
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If you have a service manual it will provide that value, or someone may reply soon with the figure. Since I have 1100 data only that won't help you.
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- GL1800 R1200RT NC700
- 2024 Miles
- 008131
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- 6651
I can say that my ST1300 with a 62mm oil level and a 2 to 1 mix of SS-7 to SS-8 I could do a full on hard front brake stop and use all of the fork travel less about 10 mm. That was a target for me. The 16mm spacer gave me a rider sag of 36 mm and the spring rate and oil level gave me all of the suspension travel the stock forks offered. You can take a couple of 6" or 8" zip ties around one fork leg to make a poor man's data acquisition system to record the amount of suspension travel used. With the forks fully extended measure 108 mm up from the top of the fork wiper and leave a zip tie there. Slip the other one down to the seal wiper and go test ride it. The wiper will push the lower zip tie to the maximum fork compression encountered during the test ride. With your weight and set up you should see something similar to me - use of 98 mm with 10 mm in reserve for hard braking over a bumpy surface. If you do not see that much travel being used maybe something is causing the fork to bind. But if it did then I would think you would also see that it does not fully extend under acceleration or when jacking the front wheel off the ground.
This web site tells you all you need to know about choosing a fork oil. Bel Ray 7 wt is not a bad choice but it cannot be compared apples to apples with any other brand oil on weight to weight alone: https://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid#SAE_Oil_Weight
This web site tells you all you need to know about choosing a fork oil. Bel Ray 7 wt is not a bad choice but it cannot be compared apples to apples with any other brand oil on weight to weight alone: https://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid#SAE_Oil_Weight
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Kevcules
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Thanks Dave. I'll try that zip tie test this weekend. Great info.
That chart makes you really think about why manufacturers even bother putting weight numbers on their bottles. Why not just say, thick, thin or pretty thin! FFS!
@Kevcules, I wouldn't put too much stock in my part of that last conversation. I got a little off centre talking about what ifs and maybes as far as a rider that is much too heavy for the factory springs. You are in the range that you should be able to make them work without the springs binding up or even the soft portion of the progressive springs binding. Like Dave said, it worked good for him, it should work good for you. When I first got my ST I tried longer spacers and the front-end was way too stiff but I have close to a hundred pounds on you. I just did valving on my forks this past winter and I actually have the opposite problem of you... I put in a really light oil and my suspension is way too soft. I'm too busy right now to change it but it's on my list. If you are certain that the alignment is proper, I would look closely at oil level. It shouldn't be too hard to pop a cap off, one at a time and use a vacuum pump or a syringe with a rubber hose and suck maybe 10 mm out and see if that makes a difference
sounds like with your current setup it should be fairly compliant, curious to see how your zip tie test works out. When you had the forks off to do the bushing replacement, etc. I assume you put them through their normal travel a few times by hand while off the bike so if there was any binding in the tubes you'd have felt that, right?
suspension tuning involves a lot of simple trial and error to see what works better and what doesn't. Don't be shy about tweaking things, its the only way to gain info, and don't expect to guess right the first time.
suspension tuning involves a lot of simple trial and error to see what works better and what doesn't. Don't be shy about tweaking things, its the only way to gain info, and don't expect to guess right the first time.
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Kevcules
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You mean with the springs in and fully assembled? I actually did both. I tried them right away once I removed them and they sprung up and down nicely. Then once I removed the tubes, I worked them up and down, mainly to dispel the remaining fluid. I removed red fluid and was going to install green I think. The colors were different anyways and I was surprised at how much pumping it took and amount of fluid was still in those pistons after letting it drain for a few hrs.
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Kevcules
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Don't worry , no offence taken. I welcome all suggestions and comments.
The tubes were retracted and the pistons were pumped several times to fill them.
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- 05 ST 1300 hack'd
I set my oil level at about 65 mm below the top of the fork tube WITH the spring in place, then I went back and read somewhere that you should set the oil level with the spring removed.... Oh well, I dont think a few mm difference ,either way would make a huge difference in fork action.
A good thing is that I can remove the fork tubes,and have them on the bench for preload/fluid adjustments in about 30 minutes tops. Once you do it a few times, it becomes very easy. Honda really has engineered the ST's where they are pretty easy to work on!
Rick.
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Kevcules
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Hey there......did the "Dave ty-wrap procedure" 
Pretty neat little experiment. I took a few pictures and hope I got their description correct.
I could easily see the ty wraps moving and coming closer together as I drove and I was surprised at how much the lower one had moved since leaving the house.
Picture #1 is taken with the bike on its side stand after I compressed the forks hard with the front brakes held on.
#2 is after after driving for a bit and hitting some fairly large bumps. No real hard braking.
#3 is after driving for 30 mins and trying to brake hard a few times at traffic lights. (about 24 mm)
#4 was taken after I put it on the center stand, set the ty wrap, took it off the center stand,and just used the bikes weight.
#5 was taken with the same procedure as #4 , but I got on the bike and then back on the center stand. (around 30 mm)
Looks like damping might be the culprit as I'm getting more travel than I thought. I still find it hard to compress the front forks.
I'm going to try some 5 weight Belray oil and I'll lower the oil level to say 85mm. To be continued.....
Pretty neat little experiment. I took a few pictures and hope I got their description correct.
I could easily see the ty wraps moving and coming closer together as I drove and I was surprised at how much the lower one had moved since leaving the house.
Picture #1 is taken with the bike on its side stand after I compressed the forks hard with the front brakes held on.
#2 is after after driving for a bit and hitting some fairly large bumps. No real hard braking.
#3 is after driving for 30 mins and trying to brake hard a few times at traffic lights. (about 24 mm)
#4 was taken after I put it on the center stand, set the ty wrap, took it off the center stand,and just used the bikes weight.
#5 was taken with the same procedure as #4 , but I got on the bike and then back on the center stand. (around 30 mm)
Looks like damping might be the culprit as I'm getting more travel than I thought. I still find it hard to compress the front forks.
I'm going to try some 5 weight Belray oil and I'll lower the oil level to say 85mm. To be continued.....
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Kevcules
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Little update.
Removed and disassembled front shocks. The oil was surprisingly black and quite dirty looking. Hasn't been many miles since I last changed it with green 7 wt Belray fluid.
I measured the fluid I removed and it was about 550 m/l each fork. This was at about 65 mm from the top of the fork.
There is no stiction at all in the forks. They move up and down freely with the springs out.
I'll find some 5 wt fluid tomorrow and fill the forks until I get about 85 mm from the top. Hopefully a little less fluid and lighter weight fluid will make the forks compress easier. We'll see what that does.....
Removed and disassembled front shocks. The oil was surprisingly black and quite dirty looking. Hasn't been many miles since I last changed it with green 7 wt Belray fluid.
I measured the fluid I removed and it was about 550 m/l each fork. This was at about 65 mm from the top of the fork.
There is no stiction at all in the forks. They move up and down freely with the springs out.
I'll find some 5 wt fluid tomorrow and fill the forks until I get about 85 mm from the top. Hopefully a little less fluid and lighter weight fluid will make the forks compress easier. We'll see what that does.....
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Kevcules
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Maiden voyage with lighter oil and a lower oil level yield good results on a short 45 minute run. I'll know for sure in the next few months, before it's time to put her away for the winter.
Removing, disassembling and re-installing the front shocks is a fairly easy process. Hopefully I can leave it alone now for a few years....
Removing, disassembling and re-installing the front shocks is a fairly easy process. Hopefully I can leave it alone now for a few years....
I have a similar problem with the front suspension.
It works quite hard, as if it was obliterated. It bends on large bumps, but the suspension does not work on undulating road.
It rides like a breaker, which is very uncomfortable, it's also hard to drive a motorcycle.
I replaced the seals, 10W oil and bushings.
There is very little improvement. It's hard to push the front end that moves with resistance.
I poured the recommended amount of oil, but did not measure the level.
By the way, it turned out that the steering head bearings were damaged, so I also replaced them.
It works quite hard, as if it was obliterated. It bends on large bumps, but the suspension does not work on undulating road.
It rides like a breaker, which is very uncomfortable, it's also hard to drive a motorcycle.
I replaced the seals, 10W oil and bushings.
There is very little improvement. It's hard to push the front end that moves with resistance.
I poured the recommended amount of oil, but did not measure the level.
By the way, it turned out that the steering head bearings were damaged, so I also replaced them.
If the fok tubes individually move smoothly but not the asembled fork, then I would suggest you need to check the alignment of the parts, especially as you have replaced the steering head bearings. Loosen off the top fork nut, top clamps, axle and axle clamps, then give the fork a vigorous amount of up and down bouncing, to allow all the parts to find their most aligned position. Then tighten the upper parts, repeat the bounce, then the axle, repeat the bounce, and finally the axle clamps.I have a similar problem with the front suspension.
It works quite hard, as if it was obliterated. It bends on large bumps, but the suspension does not work on undulating road.
It rides like a breaker, which is very uncomfortable, it's also hard to drive a motorcycle.
I replaced the seals, 10W oil and bushings.
There is very little improvement. It's hard to push the front end that moves with resistance.
I poured the recommended amount of oil, but did not measure the level.
By the way, it turned out that the steering head bearings were damaged, so I also replaced them.
If you are still not happy, I would drop the oil weight back to 5W and check the correct oil level with the spings installed (although that only affects bottoming resistance, not initial bump absorption). Beyond that, replacing the compression damping valve in the cartridge with a Gold Valve would be a big improvement in suspension feel.
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Kevcules
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I feel your pain.....How much do you weigh? I'm around 170lbs.
What I did , if you read through this thread, was to increase my spacer preload (as per Daves recomendations) to get the suspension sag to the proper amount ,less than it was ,so the shocks were able to have lots of travel left.
Then the last step was to go with 5W oil and a fluid level of 85 mm. This made the most improvement yet. I've only driven about 20
miles, but I can tell already that the suspension is moving like it's supposed to. Much better than before.
It's important to make sure your shocks are straight and not binding after installing your front axle. Bounce them up and down before you tighten your left side pinch bolts leaving the axle bolt pretty flush with the shock recess.
I thought about going with Racetech springs, but I'll go with this for now. I think it will be just fine...
Good luck....
What I did , if you read through this thread, was to increase my spacer preload (as per Daves recomendations) to get the suspension sag to the proper amount ,less than it was ,so the shocks were able to have lots of travel left.
Then the last step was to go with 5W oil and a fluid level of 85 mm. This made the most improvement yet. I've only driven about 20
miles, but I can tell already that the suspension is moving like it's supposed to. Much better than before.
It's important to make sure your shocks are straight and not binding after installing your front axle. Bounce them up and down before you tighten your left side pinch bolts leaving the axle bolt pretty flush with the shock recess.
I thought about going with Racetech springs, but I'll go with this for now. I think it will be just fine...
Good luck....
Hello. Thank you for the quick reply.
I weigh 96kg (211lbs?) But despite being heavier, I also have a problem.
My Honda has a mileage of almost 100,000 km and I don't know if it's real, so the front suspension may simply be worn out. I will disassemble them again and check element by element. I will not be able to check only the "valve" because it cannot be dismantled.
In my Honda, the suspension is working hard all the time, even when it is standing on the side foot and I press the steering wheel, this deflection is after some applied force and it stops suddenly.
It works as if it was dry or seized, so I don't think changing the oil will do anything, but I'll check it for sure.
I also have to synchronize throttles and control valve clearance.
I also checked and replaced the rear wheel bearings because they were damaged.
I have a lot of work to do with Honda.
I weigh 96kg (211lbs?) But despite being heavier, I also have a problem.
My Honda has a mileage of almost 100,000 km and I don't know if it's real, so the front suspension may simply be worn out. I will disassemble them again and check element by element. I will not be able to check only the "valve" because it cannot be dismantled.
In my Honda, the suspension is working hard all the time, even when it is standing on the side foot and I press the steering wheel, this deflection is after some applied force and it stops suddenly.
It works as if it was dry or seized, so I don't think changing the oil will do anything, but I'll check it for sure.
I also have to synchronize throttles and control valve clearance.
I also checked and replaced the rear wheel bearings because they were damaged.
I have a lot of work to do with Honda.
Update.
I disassembled the front suspension again, washed it and examined it again carefully.
It turned out that the lower part, the aluminum one, is very worn in one place.
It is possible that the top tube was bent in the top bushing.
I bought a used suspension and put it on today.
By pressing down on the front, the suspension works better and much quieter.
Tomorrow I am going to test and compare the suspension with another ST1300.
If it's okay, I have to take it out again and change the oil and seals.
I disassembled the front suspension again, washed it and examined it again carefully.
It turned out that the lower part, the aluminum one, is very worn in one place.
It is possible that the top tube was bent in the top bushing.
I bought a used suspension and put it on today.
By pressing down on the front, the suspension works better and much quieter.
Tomorrow I am going to test and compare the suspension with another ST1300.
If it's okay, I have to take it out again and change the oil and seals.
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