Sena 20S Music Sound Quality?

SteveST1300 said:

The 315s have a removable replaceable cord

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Right. The new(er) lineup is xx5 as in 315. The previous line was xx0 as in 310. The xx5 line has removable cords but the xx0 didn't. That's why I got mine at a deep discount. And $50 off for the $315s buys a lot of pie!

I'm getting the iAUSU speakers but might still get the 315s to see how they fare. My Shures used with their memory foam tips seal and isolate better than any earbud/tip combo I've ever tried and all without any discomfort for several hours.

I picked up a 20s today at the Chicago motorcycle show. Ended up going ahead and getting the UClear speakers instead of getting customer plugs with drivers.

Landon said:

I picked up a 20s today at the Chicago motorcycle show. Ended up going ahead and getting the UClear speakers also to replace the Sena speakers with.

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I picked up 2 dual packs. Dropped my Fit Ear plugs/buds off to get tweaked so I don't lose the seal when riding leaned forward on the CBR. So they told me don't need the UCLEAR. Talked to them about using UClear as they sold both. He agreed UClear would boost the sound.

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STGUY said:

I picked up 2 dual packs. Dropped my Fit Ear plugs/buds off to get tweaked so I don't lose the seal when riding leaned forward on the CBR. So they told me don't need the UCLEAR. Talked to them about using UClear as they sold both. He agreed UClear would boost the sound.

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I assume you got yours 20s from helmet sound. They had a great price on them. I told him about the discussion on this forum and he recommended the UClear. At $35 I figured I might as well pick them up while there.

Yes I got them there. He said since I had the custom ear molds to get them corrected and not to bother with UClear. 350 for a dual pack was a very good price IMHO. Let us know how it works out.

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Great thread. :yes:

I've been using a Cardo Scala Rider Bluetooth headset kit with my ST1300 for years, the Scala Rider paired to my Zumo 550 GPS and my phone paired to my GPS. I like high fidelity music and I really disliked the sound from helmet speakers, especially when the volume is turned up to overcome the wind noise and to overcome foam earplugs.

So instead, I use Shure, Etymotic, or similar high-fidelity sound isolating earbuds, with the earbuds plugged into the GPS mount and the GPS playing my fav MP3 files. With my Zumo 550, I had it setup so that all audio (phone, music, navigation) is routed through the earbuds. As a result, basically the Scala Rider was only used to transmit my voice during rare phone calls. The Scala Rider would go all day and most of another day configured this way. I was pleased with the setup.

But with my new RT, there's no audio output jack (I'd love to learn otherwise if someone knows something I've not yet discovered). So Bluetooth audio via a helmet headset is the only way to hear anything on this bike (the bike's audio system integrates all signals from the GPS, Satellite XM, a Thumbdrive loaded with MP3's, AM, FM ... all of them are supplied by Bluetooth). I've been trying to figure out how to get earbuds hooked into my new RT's system to get good audio quality--I haven't come across a 'fix' on any BMW RT forum, and so had resolved myself that I'd have to do surgery on the bike's wiring to find the audio signal wires and add a 3.5mm earbud jack.

Then I read this thread... the earbud ports built right into the 20S' helmet clamp likely solves my dilemma!

But a question for those that use earbuds plugged into the 20S: what are your experiences on the music's audio fidelity (given the audio is transmitted to the 20S over BT)?

BakerBoy said:

But a question for those that use earbuds plugged into the 20S: what are your experiences on the music's audio fidelity (given the audio is transmitted to the 20S over BT)?

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I'm curious about this as well. Good earbuds will potentially sound better than ear speakers especially speaks used with earplugs. But hearing the difference between wired and BT with earbuds?

You're not using the mp3/mp4 format but something like ALAC FLAC AIFF WMV? I can't imagine hearing the difference between lossy and non-lossy files over a wire at speed with bike road helmet and traffic noise. Seems like the difference between non-lossy files over wire vs BT would only be discernible at higher volumes unlike a home environment.

Having some 530s they might get a one-time try to see what I can hear on the road. Certainly mp3s over BT would sound better than the best non-lossy files through speakers. When riding a compromise of convenience over fidelity works for me. I'm not confident I could the difference between wired and BT on a bike regardless of file type.

Bones said:

Ken, the 20S has an audio out jack that I use for ear buds (in-the-ear-canal speakers), Klipsch in my case. I used the Sena helmet speakers for a while but I wear ear plugs and was not happy with the resulting sound quality. Since I would wear ear plugs anyway, it's not really any different putting in ear buds before putting on my helmet. My Klipsch ear buds came with a variety of tips (silicone, foam, sound attenuating soft foam...) and I found I preferred the size Small sound attenuating soft foam tips. Eventually (like after a year) these needed replacement and I bought a set of 3 pairs of Comply ear buds on Amazon.

For me, ear buds provide much better sound quality than the helmet speakers and function like ear plugs for cutting wind noise, etc. ... but definitely a winner in regards to sound quality over helmet speakers. I left the Sena helmet speakers installed as backup.

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Thanks for the info Scott about the audio output jack on the 20S. I should have known you'd have it figured out.

Any comment on the music's relative audio fidelity [with earbuds plugged into the 20S' audio output jack] given that the signal is transmitted to the 20S over Bluetooth? I suspect it is 'medium' relative fidelity ('low' being what the 20S speakers deliver with music coming in over BT, 'high' being what the earbuds would deliver if they were hardwired into the music source), but am hopeful it is even better than 'medium'.

TIA.

This has been a great thread I to got my 20 S dual pack from Helmet Sound at the NYC MC show. they were a great price too good to pass up. I managed to get the shure SE315's from e bay for $148 asking price was $199 I offered $130 they countered with $148 and I took it. I haven't seen them less expensive anywhere else. Now I have to wait for the snow and salt to be gone before I can really test everything out.

BakerBoy said:

But a question for those that use earbuds plugged into the 20S: what are your experiences on the music's audio fidelity (given the audio is transmitted to the 20S over BT)?

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Bottom line up front: You need to select your speakers by trying them out yourself as if buying speakers back in the day. What does it sound like to you? The Sena exceeds the basic bluetooth sample rate and should clearly support MP3.

Some specifications:

Target specification CD: CD audio Sample rate 16 bit 44.1 kHz is commonly used for music reproduction (16 (bits) x 44,100 (fs) x 2 (two channels in a stereo signal) = 1411.2kbps)

Bluetooth 4.1 audio specs: http://soundexpert.org/news/-/blogs/audio-quality-of-bluetooth-aptx
Compression ratio: 4:1
Audio Format: 16-bit, 44.1kHz
Data Rates: 352kbps
Frequency Response: 10Hz to 22kHz
Algorithmic Delay: <1.89ms @ Fs 48KHz
Dynamic Range: 16-bit: >92dB
THD+N: -68.8dB


Sena 20s specs
Sample rate: max. 48 kHz (DAC)

Advanced Audio Distribution Profile (A2DP) supports MP3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bluetooth_profiles#Advanced_Audio_Distribution_Profile_.28A2DP.29

Following from MPS source: http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/what-data-compression-does-your-music

Psychoacoustics is the study of how humans perceive sound. By middle age, few people can hear above 16kHz, and even young people with good hearing perceive these high frequencies far less efficiently. Perfect hearing is rated at 20Hz-20kHz.

Amazon offers MP3 files at 256kbps (it used to only offer 128kbps), and iTunes now offers AACs at 256kbps. The initial goal of MP3 was to produce 'acceptable' results when coding at 128kbps. That's a data reduction of over 90 percent, producing a file about an 11th the size of the raw 16-bit, 44.1kHz PCM file. MP3 lacks crisp high frequency and solid bass notes.

My conclusion: Get yourself a hearing test and see what your range is (don't wast money on speakers out of your range, they get very pricey with multiple drivers). Right now MP3 is about the best we're going to do based on file stoage for a good selection of music. Then check out several speaker's or earbuds meeting your range and sound good to you. Buy a BT system that supports Bluetooth 4.1 and ride

Good data Reginald. From the specs, BT 4.1 and the Sena 20S are capable of data rates in excess of today's common MP3 files.

I've full range hearing--tested every year at 'all' frequencies. Even with the fidelity compression (over CD rates) that MP3 brings, 'speakers' (of any quality drivers) are hamstrung at producing full fidelity sound given they're trying to push the sound through air, overcoming the helmet wind noise and earplugs. I've proven it many times in trying different combinations: the best solution for me is high fidelity sound isolating earbuds with NRR>25 (I get NRR >33 with foam plugs, as tested by audiologist).

So I still wonder ... for those that run the earbuds directly connected to the 20S (and hopefully someone with the 20S paired to the BMW RT BT system), do you hear loss of fidelity?

Just about any BT device these days has the bandwidth for mp3 files. The mp3 codec was designed to compress non-compressed audio to 320kps or less. At this point the quality of the electronics is the real consideration.



If you're going to use mp3s for music fidelity isn't a major concern and there'll be virtually no difference between wired and BT. BT won't have the bandwidth to support CD quality though. Play a quality hi-res file over wire and BT and you'll hear a difference.

In the highly-compassed file format arena and especially on a 320-bit AAC is about as good as it gets. Apple has had the option of AAC (mp4) encoding for years. Whether you can hear the difference between it and 320- or 256-bit mp3 on a motorcycle is going to be pretty individual thing and ventures into Golden Ears territory.

So yeah the Sena has the bandwidth but does its electronics affect fidelity?

I got my sena installed in the helmet yesterday. Its going to take a bit to learn all its functions. I went ahead and hooked up the speakers that came with the Sena, figured I would try them out before I dropped in the Uclear.

BakerBoy said:

But a question for those that use earbuds plugged into the 20S: what are your experiences on the music's audio fidelity (given the audio is transmitted to the 20S over BT)?

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John, I went through multiple iterations of sound-to-helmet solutions with my '14 RT. I started with a Schuberth helmet with BMW's Communication System (convenient but no bike-to-bike possibility and AWFUL tinny sound quality). I looked into a popular solution that involves tapping into the OEM sound system's speaker wires to make an (effective) audio out jack and even bought the wires and connectors to do it, but then I had the opportunity to the 20S for Rider. I played with the position of the helmet speakers and tried several different ear plugs to see if any worked to my satisfaction for sound quality and none did. Since I would go to the trouble of inserting ear plugs for a ride anyway, I thought the audio-out-with-earbuds approach might be the ticket. I credit SteveST1300 with making me see the light on that. For me it was just a matter of trying the various tips that came with my Klipsch earbuds to find the more comfortable. The soft foam, bullet shaped tips were best for me and I found aftermarket ones from Comply so I can carry spares.

Overall, I find the sound quality with a 20S and good quality earbuds to be quite good. It's Bluetooth so plugging directly into a music source is likely better, but a 20S with good earbuds is leaps and bounds beyond helmet speakers or helmet speakers and earplugs, IMHO. The battery life is longer with earbuds, too. My $.02 is here:
http://ridermagazine.com/2015/07/02/sena-20s-motorcycle-bluetooth-communication-system-review/

EDIT: John, if you REALLY demand the best possible sound from a 20S, you can plug a sound source, like a phone, directly into the 20S by wire, then use the audio-out jack with earbuds. That bypasses BT for music but, I believe, still lets you use bike-to-bike. I like using the BMW's audio system for MP3's (thumbdrive goes in port in the right fairing pocket) and picking up the GPS prompts, so I don't take the hardwired sound source approach. There are multiple ways to BT connect the 20S to the bike, GPS, phone...the latest version of the Sena owner guide goes through several. I connect the Sena to the bike and the Sena to my phone (S7 Edge, phone calls on, media off). That puts all the audio on the bike (AM/FM/MP3/Satellite/Weather/GPS...) into my earbuds. I can make voice activated phone calls using the Google App and set the 20S for audio priorities (music reduces in volume but doesn't cut out completely when GPS prompts are announced, which is really nice). SO MANY options with a 20S...

ST Gui said:

If you're going to use mp3s for music fidelity isn't a major concern and there'll be virtually no difference between wired and BT. BT won't have the bandwidth to support CD quality though. Play a quality hi-res file over wire and BT and you'll hear a difference.

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There is always the electronics to consider too. You convert digital to audio the quality can vary from different process and ways it's done.

But in the relm of the motorcycle world, listening to this sound while the road noise, wind noise and hum of the engine is tryoing to compete for your attention... it would have to be a really bad D/A conversion for someone to notice I'd think.

My wired headphones at home sound better then my BT headset I use at the gym. But both sound better then my 20S. All are acceptable for the environment they are working in.

Bones said:

if you REALLY demand the best possible sound from a 20S, you can plug a sound source, like a phone, directly into the 20S by wire, then use the audio-out jack with earbuds. That bypasses BT for music but, I believe, still lets you use bike-to-bike. I like using the BMW's audio system for MP3's (thumbdrive goes in port in the right fairing pocket) and picking up the GPS prompts, so I don't take the hardwired sound source approach.

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Wire VS BT, a good point for discussion. In the past (20 yrs ago?) CD audiophiles purchased high end copper wire with gold tips to achieve what they thought was the best through put. At the time I read that any wire that exceeded the requirements of a CD specs would work and there'd be no difference between a high end expensive wire and one that just met the requirements. Does the through put of BT 4.1 VS wire work the same? BT 4.1 exceeds the best 256K MP3's by over 100 Kbps. I would think BT 4.1 would work as well as wire, but honestly can't say for sure. Haven't found a study on it.

I could be true that the translation CODEC by BMW is better than the S20 or your ear appreciates the difference of one over the other. Sounds like a decision for the listener.

Reginald said:

Sounds like a decision for the listener

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Yup...that's what matters most.

Thanks Scott for the details and everyone for the info! :yes:

When CDs started becoming popular gold-top audio gear— connectors and 'phone plugs were all the rage and being touted as 'digital ready'. The truth was the gold plating didn't oxidize as did previous connectors. But that really didn't make much difference to 1s and 0s. Oxidation wasn't that critical for headphone plugs but it looked sexy.

There's no doubt as far as I'm concerned that BT has ample bandwidth for the 'best' mp3s. Wire or BT they're still just mp3s. Wire has the advantage only with lossless (non-mp3) files for CD quality because BT doesn't have the necessary bandwidth. There are headphones that are labeled 'Wireless' or 'RF' to differentiate them from BT gear. These have the bandwidth require for hi-res CD (or better) audio. But you won't find this used for garden variety motorcycle comms if at all.

At this point the quality of the electronics is the real consideration.

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T_C said:

There is always the electronics to consider too.

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+1


We're on motorcycles. It's not like an episode of Top Gear where The Stig is racing around in a Lambo Gallardo or McLaren while listen to a self-help tape or pristine classical music in absolute silence.

BakerBoy said:

...
for those that run the earbuds directly connected to the 20S (and hopefully someone with the 20S paired to the BMW RT BT system), do you hear loss of fidelity?

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I'll answer my own question.

After a half dozen rides with my new R1200RT, with a new Sena 20S paired into my R1200RT's audio system, using high fidelity Etymotic Research earbuds (and also tested with high fidelity Shure earbuds) plugged directly into the earbud output jack on my 20S headset: The sound quality is NOT full fidelity to the source audio's capability. It is certainly MUCH better than listening through the lousy in-helmet speakers, but the audio clearly is not equivalent to a hard-wired direct-connect into an output jack. Regardless of the supposed Bluetooth 4.1 data rate specs saying there will be no distortion/compression, that doesn't prove to be true.

I do believe the issue is likely the combination of the BMW's audio system and the Sena 20S. I say this because as I listen to the various sources available to me through the RT, I get different sound quality from each. Poorest: XM (naturally, because it is such a low bitrate transmission from the satellites), next poorest: AM/FM radio. Descent quality is heard with MP3's from the GPS audio output onto the RT's comm system, and best quality (still distorted, but the best of the 4): MP3's from a memory stick plugged into the RT's comm system dongle.

I prefer using my GPS for playing MP3 files because I can reduce the volume level output on the GPS--otherwise, the BMW comm system blasts the signal at full volume (can't be turned down, thanks BMW! ;-) )

Overall, I like the 20S with earbuds plugged into the 20S' output jack, but it still has room for improvement.