Coolant getting in oil / Cracked Cylinder

Thanks Mark. I agree with all of the points you mentioned. Except, I've decided to do all future work, including the assembly inspection myself. If there is anything I'm not sure of, I'll find someone else to help me, or take it to the Honda dealer.

Minnesota does require that I file paperwork to record the new engine number. I've discussed the process with the DMV and I should have what I need (Copy of the Salvage Title from the wrecked bike, and a bill of sale on the motor). They will re-issue the title, even though it doesn't list the engine number, and it won't indicate salvage status.

With respect to your second point, the whole reason that I took the bike to this mechanic in the first place is that he advertises his standard practice is to record all the valve clearances, compression, etc. and provide that documentation along with pictures of all work performed. I'm absolutely expecting that for both the original work, and the engine transplant. He did say that he already checked/adjusted the valves on the new motor while it was on the bench. So, we'll see what he actually delivers in terms of pictures and notes.

Finally, I hadn't thought about damage to the Cats.... Wouldn't they get hot enough to incinerate the coolant? I'll have to read-up on this and then watch out for issues - thanks again for the heads-up.

-Nick

naustin said:

Finally, I hadn't thought about damage to the Cats.... Wouldn't they get hot enough to incinerate the coolant? I'll have to read-up on this and then watch out for issues - thanks again for the heads-up.

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Antifreeze will contaminate a catalytic converter. Usual procedure on cat equipped vehicles is to replace the converters if antifreeze entered the exhaust system. I've seen some survive contamination, I've seen others end up melting internally. O2 sensors must be replace also.

I read that the issue with coolant has to do the phosphorus content. Under 350 degrees, the coolant won't hurt the cat. (probably smart to rinse it out). But, above 350 degrees, the phosphorus in the coolant will under-go a chemical reaction within the catalyst and bind to the metals making the Cat ineffective, and you may no longer pass emissions.

In addition, the o2 sensors can be damaged and read leaner than reality - thus causing the bike to run rich. Extra unburned fuel will overheat the Cats, causing them to potentially melt internally, or have pieces break loose, causing blockages.

So, its a combination of issues...

The question is, how hot did my bike get when it was started before it was shut off. There's a chance, since it never ran coolant though the exhaust at full operating temps, that the cats might be OK. And, I can replace the o2 sensor cheaply, just to be safe....

Used Mufflers/Cats on ebay are around $400. For that price, I'd consider aftermarket - but then they don't have any cats at all...

naustin said:

The question is, how hot did my bike get when it was started before it was shut off.

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Aye, therein lies the rub. Depends how long you ran the bike with the leak. You could probably take the mufflers off and with a good flashlight examine the cats. If they appear clean, you might have dodged the bullet. I don't know if you can see the effects of the chemical reaction - perhaps compare your cats to a friend's bike? You might get away with simply changing the oxy sensors to prevent the meltdown and damage from running the bike on a rich mixture. It is also possible that you just rinsed them off.

You could probably buy used mufflers on here for 1-200 as many of us have gone to aftermarket .

I got another update. The physical motor swap is in progress, and the new motor is in the frame... Hopefully, I will have it back soon...

Not excited to see that goofy oil filter on the replacement motor. The Salvage bike also had an aftermarket exhaust... Once the bike is back together again, it I've been told it will get all new fluids/filter, and the TB sync will be performed again.

Progress! good news.

naustin said:

Not excited to see that goofy oil filter on the replacement motor.

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I'm not sure what that is. MCN reviewed a high tech filter that looked something like that. Since I've never seen one of them, I'm simply guessing. Anyway, it cost $130-279, (depending on machining and finish - price from the article), contained a fine stainless steel mesh strainer and no paper filtering media. You pulled the cover, washed the strainer in solvent and reassembled it. I have no idea how effective it would be, though MCN was favorably impressed with the machining and the concept of the strainer. The K & P Engineering filter is aircraft rated by the FAA (according to the article). Don't forget that aircraft engines get overhauled every 1000 hours which would be somewhere around 50k miles. Regardless, that filter might be ok - do your own research and due diligence.

Anyway, if you are interested, PM me with an email address and I can scan the December 2012 article and send it to you. Alternatively, look at this, LINKY.

Does anyone here really think this guy (mechanic) will know the proper way to put it all back together correctly? The swingarm and shaft have some very specific torque requirements when assembling.
Before the OP rides off into the sunset, I would have someone very familiar with these bikes go over every nut, bolt, and torque setting.
Just saying.

SMSW said:

The K & P Engineering filter is aircraft rated by the FAA (according to the article).

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Don't read a whole lot into "FAA rated" or "mil spec" in product descriptions unless you're buying for an aircraft or a DoD application. The FAA pretty much requires recertification if you put new air in the tires, and most engines pass just fine with the $20 paper oil filters supplied by the engine manufacturer. Something that meets MIL-T-27730A sounds awfully impressive until you look it up and discover that it's a 50-year-old specification for ordinary plumber's tape.

For the same price as the K&P, you can buy an quarter-million miles' worth of disposable paper filters that don't require special cleaning and will have freshly-machined threads and a clean gasket every time you spin one on.

--Mark

Blrfl said:

Don't read a whole lot into "FAA rated" or "mil spec" in product descriptions unless you're buying for an aircraft or a DoD application. The FAA pretty much requires recertification if you put new air in the tires, and most engines pass just fine with the $20 paper oil filters supplied by the engine manufacturer. Something that meets MIL-T-27730A sounds awfully impressive until you look it up and discover that it's a 50-year-old specification for ordinary plumber's tape.

For the same price as the K&P, you can buy an quarter-million miles' worth of disposable paper filters that don't require special cleaning and will have freshly-machined threads and a clean gasket every time you spin one on.

--Mark

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Mark, Were I endorsing this filter, I'd own one. I was simply trying to help the OP identify what he had on his new/used engine and was quoting the article. I have some real questions about the filtering efficacy of a SS screen compared to a paper filter. So far, there is probably an aggregate of umpteen zillion miles on paper filters on various internal comb. engines of all shapes and sizes compared to a much shorter distance (or hours, as the case might be) on SS screen filters. Paper media is a proven technology. SS screen? Maybe so, I don't know. Until someone does an impartial test of these comparing them to various other filter options, this remains in the curiosity range for me. Were I to get one as a gift, then I would do whatever research on it I could and make a decision whether to use it or not.

Mil spec, FAA approved or USDA Prime Filter is all irrelevant. I don't even know what kind of bypass these have or if one is made for ST's. Btw, check out what 100% Angus beef means before you seek out your next steak.

Peter

SMSW said:

Btw, check out what 100% Angus beef means before you seek out your next steak.

Peter

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It don't mean USDA Prime!

Just dropped into this thread. What a saga.
I'm curious as to the present status.

DavidR8 said:

Just dropped into this thread. What a saga.
I'm curious as to the present status.

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See post #107

Whoops my mistake. I missed the date on that post.

DavidR8 said:

Whoops my mistake. I missed the date on that post.

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Ah, no worries. It's a long thread with lots of detail, easy to miss some.

This has been very interesting and informative to say the least. I do all my own work so I know now not to drop a valve shim in the cylinder. I've made small blunders from time to time but never anything like this. This would sure hurt your ego. Hope this all works out good in the end. Maybe the mechanic is following this thread so he knows for sure what is expected of him.

Update:

A couple more weeks have gone by. After finally getting the motor in the frame, the bike threw and injector code on cylinder #1 (same one that was damaged). Since the ECU was buried in the tail, and my aftermarket FuseBlock was in the way, and removing that required removing the topcase hardware, etc. - my bike got pushed in the corner again in favor of other jobs he could finish more quickly. :???:

However, I spoke to the mechanic again yesterday and it was on the lift. He swapped injector #1 for injector #3, and the code still indicated #1 as the problem. He said he tested the wiring and everything seems ok. All sensors etc. were the original on my bike, none of the electronics from the salvage motor were used.

I'm wondering if the ECU may have stored the code on cylinder #1 when the original engine was flooded with coolant. Mechanic said the ECU reset procedure outlined in the factory shop manual didn't seem to be working - and he wasn't getting it to flash the pattern described to indicate the stored codes had been cleared.

Does anyone know if there is a trick to clearing the ECU that the Shop Manual doesn't describe very well?

(EDIT) I found an article with a good description of the ECM reset procedure in plain English....

PM sent :call:
Igofar

cornSTalk said:

This has been very interesting and informative to say the least. I do all my own work so I know now not to drop a valve shim in the cylinder. I've made small blunders from time to time but never anything like this. This would sure hurt your ego. Hope this all works out good in the end. Maybe the mechanic is following this thread so he knows for sure what is expected of him.

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Dropping the shim into the cylinder is not the problem. Not retrieving it and starting the engine is. Since the pistons and cylinders are aluminum, a magnet on a flex shaft might do the trick. If not, pulling the head will work.

Hurt your ego? Might hurt more than that (as in piston). Sounds to me like the mechanic is trying to make good, which is nice. Losing a riding season is not.

It is my guess that he thought the shim disappeared down an oil drain hole to the sump. Anyone who has worked on an internal combustion engine knows there are myriad places errant screws and shims like to hide. Most of these places are benign, but if the engine is open, you can never be sure.