Balancing Wheels Without The Tires On

At my next tire change I am considering balancing my wheel assemblies separately- that is without any tires installed. I have plenty of the stick-on weights. I also have collected a small array of various sizes of the clamp-on weights that Honda delivers the bike with. I will be using the clamp-on weights simply because it seems like they might be more permanent than the stick-on type. Once the wheels are balanced there should not be any reason to ever remove these weights so scratching is not an issue. Also because they install on the center-line of the wheel which is the best place to put wheel weights. If I were to use the stick-on weights I would apply them to the inside of the wheel before the tire is installed. While thinking about this I became curious to know if the stick-on weights stay adhered to the inside of the wheel. If any of you have done this with the stick-on weights applied to the inside of the wheel, do these stick-on weights ever come off due to a combination of time (the glue drying out) and centrifugal force always trying to force them off the wheel surface as it rotates? Do you find them floating around inside the tire when you remove it? I have had the stick-on weights fall off several times- usually after having been riding for extended periods in heavy rain. Being on the inside this would not be a factor of course. But what about glue drying out and the effects of centrifugal force? Do they stay put?

I always thought that what was really being balanced was the tire. My assumption was that each tire has slight irregularities that need to be accounted for. All these years and suddenly I'm questioning my (never validated) assumptions.

Weights that clamp on the centerline of the wheel: good

stick on weights: not as good

Your thought to balance the wheel without a tire: misplaced.

You balance the TIRE/wheel combo, not the wheel

Seems a waste of time and effort to me, as you still need to re-balance with the tire in place. Stick ons inside would be a big gamble too. If they separate from the wheel while on a trip, are you going to stop at a dealer and have them pull the tire so you can re-balance the wheel/tire assembly? Why bother?

Variability in any manufacturing process can lead to balance issues....casting flaws, differences in material density, paint distribution, variations in elastomeric compound in the tires, inconsistent cross sectional profiles of the tires, excess grease on one side of rear drive splines, valve stem material, etc.
It can ALL be fixed by balancing a completed wheel that is ready for installation.

I don't know what's best but as the rim's weight distribution is relatively stable balancing it in some permanent fashion takes it out of the equation and you're truly balancing just the tire. As they are mass produced I imagine it's possible to refine their structure. One less element to consider.

A tire is a consumable and it's weight distribution is theoretically unstable. As it wears the balance point could change. I don't know if it does or by how much and how significant it is. Apparently balance beads can compensate for that.

If I had the room and tools (and inclination) why not try to reduce tolerances and variables as much as possible. As I don't the tires and rims will be balanced as a unit and maybe tire beads added.

Put "Ride On" inside the tire/wheel and no worries of loosing wheel weights. YMMV

Which way do you think Honda balances them? I bet its the wheel with tire as an assembly.

Here are a couple of technical articles about balancing tires and wheels:
http://www.barrystiretech.com/oetires.html

http://www.barrystiretech.com/unifandbal.html

My question to throw into the pot - do you think a tire wears completely even once it hits the road? That's why the beads (which I am not using yet) intrigue me. I prefer to balance the rim first where most of the problems are usually located and then balance the 'assembled' unit if need be. BTW, I've never had a problem with good quality stick on weights on my ST1100s coming off. But then I've only done 300,000+ miles or so with them ...

balancing the wheel without the tire would make sense under one scenario, if you plan on riding the bike on the rims without any tires. Otherwise, its a waste of time.

Uncle Phil said:

That's why the beads (which I am not using yet) intrigue me.

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I have been using the beads for the last 30,000 + miles. Can not say they help, but can say they do not hurt. i reuse them. Once I remove the first bead, I take a nylon stocking and slip the toe into a vacuum hose and then roll the open end over the hose. Vacuum out the beads, which are now trapped in the stocking. Once i have the first bead of the new tire on the rim, I carefully pour the beads out of the stocking in to the tire. Finish up with the tire mounting and good to go.

dwalby said:

Otherwise, its a waste of time.

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It only has to be done once, so not that much of a waste. I have had great luck with tires not needing to add weight after mounting. I am the second owner, maybe the previous one balance the rims, just a thought.

Andrew, I understand the point. Nevermind the other guys.

I check the balance on the rims of my ST and other bikes (without tire), and most haven't been balanced as machined. I don't balance the rim (without tires), but I do mark the heavy spot with a sharpie on the inside of the rim so that if I install tired with their 'light spot' marked (that spot is to be lined up with the valve stem under the assumption that the valve stem represents the heaviest part of the rim). Once I have the actual heavy spot of the rim marked, then I get better placement of the tire's light spot than is attained by blindly aligning the tire's light spot to the valve stem.

Further, as a practice, I do NOT remove any weights from the rim when I'm replacing tires (whether mine or someone elses' bike). After the new tire is installed, I check balance with the old weights still installed. It is amazing how often the old weights are still quite effective at balancing a new tire. Said another way, the tire/wheel balance isn't changed much with new tires in my experience, therefore the weights already on the rim are generally balancing the rim.

The bigger balancing issue I've found is I can tell when I've tire lube water running around inside the tire when I try to balance it ... the water runs to the low spot in the tire, and I chase the balance around. I've broken the bead and wiped out water in those cases, and easily attain a good balance then.

If you use stick-on weights with a strip of duct tape, the weight will not come off.

Kevin_56 said:

It only has to be done once, so not that much of a waste. I have had great luck with tires not needing to add weight after mounting. I am the second owner, maybe the previous one balance the rims, just a thought.

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if the tires don't vary, then balancing once with the tire mounted would be the last time you'd ever need to balance the wheel. You selected the correct word when you said "luck".

edit: but I will qualify my statements on the topic by saying back in the '80s when a decent tire was $50-60 and mounting was free but it was an additional $10 to balance it, I'd just have it mounted for free and tell them not to bother with the balancing. Never noticed anything different, at any speed, over tens of thousands of miles.

dwalby said:

balancing the wheel without the tire would make sense under one scenario, if you plan on riding the bike on the rims without any tires. Otherwise, its a waste of time.

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Good point!

Uncle Phil said:

My question to throw into the pot - do you think a tire wears completely even once it hits the road? That's why the beads (which I am not using yet) intrigue me. I prefer to balance the rim first where most of the problems are usually located and then balance the 'assembled' unit if need be. BTW, I've never had a problem with good quality stick on weights on my ST1100s coming off. But then I've only done 300,000+ miles or so with them ...

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We all know that tires do NOT wear evenly - or if they do, they are not manufactured with a perfectly symmetrical cross section. Else, why would we wear through to the cords in only one spot and not an even ribbon all the way around the tire? (My point is the tires are not consistent from sample to sample and have to be balanced on the wheel).

Years ago, Road and Track Magazine advocated balancing tires twice, once when installed on the rims, and then again some miles (1000? I forget how many) later. They said the plies move in a new tire and you should not practice drag racing and sudden stops on new tires. Now, I'm not sure I buy this - how much slipping and sliding away did said plies move? I'm simply restating what I read. Over the years, that seems to have changed - probably as manufacturing processes and rubber compounds improved - and balancing happens once at installation.

If you ever watched tires being built - the layering of the rubber plies followed by the vulcanizing process in the mold - you would know that there has to be an inconsistency from tire to tire, and the fact that they are round and able to be balanced at all is a marvel of modern engineering.

I will close w a question. Most of the tires I've seen are marked and the mark goes next to the valve stem (presumably the light side of the rim). If you were to perfectly balance the rim, then what happens to the light (or heavy) side of the tire?

Kevin_56 said:

It only has to be done once, so not that much of a waste. I have had great luck with tires not needing to add weight after mounting.

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Same here: I balance the naked wheel once and haven't balanced a tire for at least 10 years. Tire manufacturing has come a long way, most no longer even color dot the lightest point.

TPadden said:

Same here: I balance the naked wheel once and haven't balanced a tire for at least 10 years. Tire manufacturing has come a long way, most no longer even color dot the lightest point.

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OK, let's assume that premise is true. If we agree that all tires are perfectly balanced, then balancing the wheel+tire provides the same balancing result as balancing the wheel without a tire, so what are you guys gaining?

Its a simple logic equation, if the tire has zero effect and can be removed from the equation, then adding zero back into the equation doesn't change anything.

dwalby said:

OK, let's assume that premise is true. If we agree that all tires are perfectly balanced, then balancing the wheel+tire provides the same balancing result as balancing the wheel without a tire, so what are you guys gaining?.

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I'd have to assume you don't change as many tires as I do to ask that question .

For the last 10 years I've averaged 40-50K miles a year on my motorcycles. Most sets of tires I get about 10K miles more or less. That's mounting 6-10 tires a year; conservatively 60 tires in 10 years. 1 balance per wheel vice 60-80 balances. Simple logic says I've gained a lot of riding time vs wasted time and effort.

TPadden said:

I'd have to assume you don't change as many tires as I do to ask that question .

For the last 10 years I've averaged 40-50K miles a year on my motorcycles. Most sets of tires I get about 10K miles more or less. That's mounting 6-10 tires a year; conservatively 60 tires in 10 years. 1 balance per wheel vice 60-80 balances. Simple logic says I've gained a lot of riding time vs wasted time and effort.

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I don't care how many miles you ride 0 + 0 = 0, simple as that.

I'll say it one more time, if all tires are perfectly balanced, then their effect on the balancing equation is zero, plain and simple. So whether you have the tire mounted, or not, the amount of weight to balance the rim imperfections is the same, with or without the tire. How can you disagree with something as basic at that?