Balancing Wheels Without The Tires On

W0QNX

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First off don't take my advice.

I balanced my wheels once. I quit balancing the wheel with tire as Padden said because the tires are so close lately it made so little difference with the small amount of weight needed.

I don't even check them anymore. Mount them up air them and ride.

I don't believe in beads. Nobody will ever convince me that beads magically go to the light spot of a tire and ride there. (Don't even try to convince me of that.)

YMMV and don't try this at home.
 

thekaz

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the only time I have balanced the rim only is when I was chasing weight and thought I may have a rim issue ...... for bikes I balance mainly out of habit as many new tires require very little if any and really it only takes minutes :)
 

TPadden

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I'll say it one more time, if all tires are perfectly balanced, then their effect on the balancing equation is zero, plain and simple. So whether you have the tire mounted, or not, the amount of weight to balance the rim imperfections is the same, with or without the tire. How can you disagree with something as basic at that?
It isn't about not having to add weight to the wheel and tire. It is the logic of performing the balance measurement ritual over and over and over. It makes sense to only do it once if that is all that is needed, especially when the ritual calls for removing the balancing weights each time from your already balanced wheel.

How can you disagree with something as basic as the fact that I'll be drinking beer :beer8: with a mounted fresh set of tires on my bike long before you've completed your balancing ritual. :rofl1:
 

Uncle Phil

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balancing the wheel without the tire would make sense under one scenario, if you plan on riding the bike on the rims without any tires. Otherwise, its a waste of time.
That would be true if tires were the major reason for 'out of balance'. As Tom said, some manufacturers don't even put the dot any more. After you do a bunch of tire changes and checking the balance, you decide to quit checking the balance. I probably haven't checked mine in the last 10 tire changes and haven't noticed a problem on any of the three STs. But the real secret to balancing the tires is the kind of oil you use ... :D After all, what's a tire thread without a little oil?
 

paulcb

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Well, I'll have to jump in now that you've brought that up Phil. Synthetic oil will definitely give you more mileage on your tires... it mixes better with the beads than dino. ;)
 

Uncle Phil

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Well, I'll have to jump in now that you've brought that up Phil. Synthetic oil will definitely give you more mileage on your tires... it mixes better with the beads than dino. ;)
Well, now that makes sense! ;-)


What oil would that be UP?:potstir1::rofl1:
:doh1: The kind that is sort of dark and oily? :D
 
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It isn't about not having to add weight to the wheel and tire. It is the logic of performing the balance measurement ritual over and over and over. It makes sense to only do it once if that is all that is needed, especially when the ritual calls for removing the balancing weights each time from your already balanced wheel.

How can you disagree with something as basic as the fact that I'll be drinking beer :beer8: with a mounted fresh set of tires on my bike long before you've completed your balancing ritual. :rofl1:
I'm not disagreeing with you, go back and read my post that said I never bothered re-balancing wheels for the entire decade of the '80s. In my later posts, all I said was if tires are all perfectly balanced, then the required weight would be the same with or without the tire on the rim. My only point was, balancing the wheel without the tire is exactly the same as balancing the wheel with the tire, if all tires are equal. So there's no advantage to balancing the bare rim without the tire, you get the same answer either way.

It seems that somehow you read "you must balance your wheels at every tire change" into my posts, and want to argue with me about that, but how you read that into my recent posts is a mystery to me.

I will say that my own wheels do seem to change balance over time with different tires, so my initial post suggested the tires would probably make a difference. But since I don't balance them myself I can't say for sure if the difference is due to the tires, or the competence of the person doing the balancing. So, I'm not disputing that you could get a series of several tires that are all equally balanced, and your wheel balance wouldn't change. None of my later posts that you quoted in this thread ever disputed your claim.
 
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TPadden

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I'm not disagreeing with you, .....and want to argue with me about that,
Thanks for that whole entertaining discussion :cool:.

Next time you have to be a little clearer with your communications if you want to agree; seems we can't even agree to disagree. :crackup I now think your judgement is much more questionable than I did when I thought we were disagreeing. :shrug1:
 
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Putting stick on weights on the inside of the wheel, the portion between the beads, is a bad idea. Centrifugal force will cause the weights to separate and may cause damage to the wheel, plus for sure, throw it out of balance.

I always check for the heavy spot on a wheel without the tire or weights installed. It has never ended up being at the valve stem. I will then take a Sharpie or paint stick and mark this heavy spot on the inside of the wheel. The light mark on the tire is placed at this heavy spot in proper rotation.
This minimizes the need for weights.
 
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Andrew Shadow

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Phew! What a firestorm- wasn't expecting that. And after all that I don't think anyone answered my question except for John in the last post. I tend to think the same way but I would like to know if this is an assumption on your part or based on experience.

It was not my intention to start a debate about whether or not balancing the wheels alone is or is not a good idea but the responses have been interesting none-the-less. It is always interesting to see how different people with different experiences approach things differently. Inevitably I always gain some insight from the responses in these kinds of threads.

I have never bothered to balance the wheels separately before and I still don't see a need to do so unless there is a balance problem one is trying to solve. If one is trying to solve a balance problem doing so is an accepted and routine practice as part of trying to diagnose/solve that balance problem just as balancing the whole wheel assembly (tire included) while installed on the vehicle is another method of solving an abnormal balance problem- mind you I have never heard of this being accomplished on a motorcycle but it is done on cars often.

Regardless of whether balancing the wheels separately is advantageous or not I will be doing so at my next tire change because there is a specific question that I want an answer to and doing so will give me that answer. As part of the process of getting that answer I will be going through the balance procedure a second time after installing the tires. The reason I am doing this is because the last three sets of PR4's that I have had installed all have taken excessive amounts of weight to balance the wheel and tire assembly- far beyond what the Honda shop manual says is acceptable and the amount that should not be exceeded. Even with rotating the tire to different positions I could not get the weights within the limits Honda says are acceptable. I have already considered and confirmed that this was not a result of them having been improperly balanced. They were checked with a fancy commercial electronic dynamic balancing machine in a motorcycle shop and they were balanced correctly- just with an excessive amount of weight. The last set I got my hands on a static balancer and rechecked them myself and they did require this amount of weight to balance. I keep reading (including in this thread) how many of you do not even bother to balance anymore because the tires are manufactured so well now. If that is true then there are only two options.
1- I am very unlucky and keep getting tires that are the exception and that are not very well balanced from the manufacturing process or
2- I have wheel assemblies that came from Honda that are more out of balance than the norm.
Either way balancing the wheels without the tires will eliminate the latter. Balancing them again after the tires are installed will determine the former.
Once I have completed this experiment I will know if it the wheels, the tires or both.

Since I don’t see the point in removing the weights once I am finished doing this the weights will remain on the wheel until the next tire change at least. Because I question whether or not the stick-on weights will remain adhered to the inside of the wheels mostly because of centrifugal force I will be using the clamp-on weights. But this is only a feeling not based on mine or anyone else’s experience that I have ever read. Hence the original question that I asked solely and completely out of curiosity- has anyone applied stick-on weights to the inside of their wheels. What was your experience- did they remain adhered to the wheel or were they dislodged and floating around inside the tire when you removed it?

Thanks for the interesting responses, opinions and debate as it all serves to inform.
 

ST Gui

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I will be using the clamp-on weights.
That's what I'd do if I had access to clamp-on weights. I've never had weights installed on the inside of a rim and all of mine have stuck to the outside as they should.

A buddy's work H-D had constantly lost some of its weights. He'd find one or two on the floor of his garage. It might be due to the greater vibration (mainly at idle) or poor installation or both. Who knows.

I'd assume that centripetal force would eventually overpower some or all of any weights installed inside using any standard adhesive. I think something like JB Weld or epoxy might be more appropriate.

I'd like to think that there's some way to install a valve stem and permanently shave the rim somehow to achieve perfect (or nearly as possible) balance without affecting integrity. When it's out of the equation then the tire is the only consideration. My last tire change required a couple of oz per wheel/tire which seems like a lot to me. And because we can only use steel weights there were several on each rim. I'd forgo balancing if it's actually unnecessary but it really doesn't take much more time to do from what I've seen.
 
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A couple of points, and a story:

Tape-on weights mounted externally tend to stay in place due to centrifugal force. Cleaning the rim at the point of attachment with brake parts cleaner seems to help. Weights taped inside the wheel will tend to come off due to centrifugal force.

When I was switching wheels on my XR1200X (forged 17" wheels for the cast 18" & 17" OEM) I had to install rotors. Having some time to kill, I balanced the bare wheel and then installed the first rotor. Checked the balance, moved the heavy spot on the rotor to the light spot on the wheel, removed the initial balance weight, and rebalanced the assembly. Repeated the same process for the second rotor. Similar process with the rear, altering balance after the pulley (belt drive) and the rear rotor. It required only 5 grams of weight to balance the Pilot Power 3 Michelins.

I have the old SmarTire pressure sensors on my ST. The sendors are held on by the world's longest hose clamp. I rotate the sensor to get the wheel as close to balance as possible, negating the need to apply balance weights to the outside solely to offset the weight of the TPM sensor. After mounting the tire, I balance the assembly. I've found that it takes minimal weight to balance Pilot Road 4 GTs.
 

ReSTored

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I think the question is an interesting one. Is a wheel and mounted tire imbalance primarily related to variances in the wheel itself or the tire that gets mounted on it? If you have a few minutes to kill balance the wheel itself, maybe just tape weights on. Then mount the tire and recheck balance. I suspect that given the relative difference in a wheel + disk(s) + rear drive hub vs just a tire that the majority of weight added to balance a wheel & tire is related to the wheel assembly itself. Once you've spend 5 minutes determining all this then what do you do........, just finish up the wheel & tire balance and move on I guess unless you want to mount some type of wheel balance weights that remain in place every-time you change tires.
 
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I have wheels that need excess weight to balance, and have balanced them without tire and placed clip-on weights. Particularly useful procedure if you have added metal valve stems and TPMS sensors. I use PR4's as well, and with the wheel pre-balanced, find they need little to balance normally..... say 1/2 ounce or in that ballpark, sometimes nothing. I re-use stick-on weights with 3M molding tape, which is better tape than the original usually.
 

TMUS

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I tried the weights inside the rim, even put a couple of loops of gorilla tape around the rim over the weights. Still broke loose and raddled around till the next tire change. Thought about a spoke protector band over the weights. But decided it's not worth it.

Tim
 

thekaz

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Phew! What a firestorm- wasn't expecting that. And after all that I don't think anyone answered my question except for John in the last post. I tend to think the same way but I would like to know if this is an assumption on your part or based on experience.

It was not my intention to start a debate about whether or not balancing the wheels alone is or is not a good idea but the responses have been interesting none-the-less. It is always interesting to see how different people with different experiences approach things differently. Inevitably I always gain some insight from the responses in these kinds of threads.

I have never bothered to balance the wheels separately before and I still don't see a need to do so unless there is a balance problem one is trying to solve. If one is trying to solve a balance problem doing so is an accepted and routine practice as part of trying to diagnose/solve that balance problem just as balancing the whole wheel assembly (tire included) while installed on the vehicle is another method of solving an abnormal balance problem- mind you I have never heard of this being accomplished on a motorcycle but it is done on cars often.

Regardless of whether balancing the wheels separately is advantageous or not I will be doing so at my next tire change because there is a specific question that I want an answer to and doing so will give me that answer. As part of the process of getting that answer I will be going through the balance procedure a second time after installing the tires. The reason I am doing this is because the last three sets of PR4's that I have had installed all have taken excessive amounts of weight to balance the wheel and tire assembly- far beyond what the Honda shop manual says is acceptable and the amount that should not be exceeded. Even with rotating the tire to different positions I could not get the weights within the limits Honda says are acceptable. I have already considered and confirmed that this was not a result of them having been improperly balanced. They were checked with a fancy commercial electronic dynamic balancing machine in a motorcycle shop and they were balanced correctly- just with an excessive amount of weight. The last set I got my hands on a static balancer and rechecked them myself and they did require this amount of weight to balance. I keep reading (including in this thread) how many of you do not even bother to balance anymore because the tires are manufactured so well now. If that is true then there are only two options.
1- I am very unlucky and keep getting tires that are the exception and that are not very well balanced from the manufacturing process or
2- I have wheel assemblies that came from Honda that are more out of balance than the norm.
Either way balancing the wheels without the tires will eliminate the latter. Balancing them again after the tires are installed will determine the former.
Once I have completed this experiment I will know if it the wheels, the tires or both.

Since I don’t see the point in removing the weights once I am finished doing this the weights will remain on the wheel until the next tire change at least. Because I question whether or not the stick-on weights will remain adhered to the inside of the wheels mostly because of centrifugal force I will be using the clamp-on weights. But this is only a feeling not based on mine or anyone else’s experience that I have ever read. Hence the original question that I asked solely and completely out of curiosity- has anyone applied stick-on weights to the inside of their wheels. What was your experience- did they remain adhered to the wheel or were they dislodged and floating around inside the tire when you removed it?

Thanks for the interesting responses, opinions and debate as it all serves to inform.
since we are talking a possible wheel issue then if you find the wheel itself needs lots of weight a machinist cab "drill" away weight to balance .....
 
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