2nd Gear Shift Grind

Have a 2001 ST1100 with just over 76K miles. I've only had this bike about 6 weeks now and put about 800 miles on it (I have 2 bikes and had a 92 ST1100 ~7 years ago).

I noticed that, if I'm accelerating hard from first, I almost always 'grind' 2nd gear. I don't accelerate hard like that a lot, and initially I thought this was because I wasn't used to the bike. But today I did some riding and very deliberately pulled the clutch all the way in before shifting, and found that it is a very 'rough' shift no matter what if the RPMs are high coming from first gear. At milder acceleration everything seems fine. It seems like the clutch isn't fully disengaging.

Anyone have any ideas? Bad clutch master cylinder maybe? Should I try to flush/bleed the clutch fluid first maybe?

I would sure try to bleed it first - sound like either your clutch s not fully disengaging - OR - you've got a synchro problem. The first one is definitely preferred.

The 1100 always gets a bit of a clunk going from first to second - not a grind mind you, but more of a clunk. Maybe it is your shifting technique. Do you preload the shift lever with your toe before pulling the clutch? The clutch works within a very small range of lever movement,, maybe half an inch, so pulling it all the way is totally unnecessary. Any delay in toeing the gear lever up, as you pull the clutch, can cause more "noise", especially in first to second.

Bush said:

The 1100 always gets a bit of a clunk going from first to second

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This is true of every Honda I've ever owned or ridden with a manual transmission.

[video=youtube;MIhycth8msU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIhycth8msU[/video] You tube may better explain it

Try to complete the shift as quickly as possible, lightly pre-loading the shift lever as previously suggested will help. Besides bleeding and flushing the hydraulics, inspect the clutch lever pivot bushing and the brass puck that receives the master cylinder push rod. Make sure the clutch lever isn't bent back slightly, contacting the grip too soon Wear or damage in these components can result in less effective travel at the slave cylinder. Lastly, most report an improvement in shift feel and action using fully synthetic oil.

shady28 said:

Have a 2001 ST1100 with just over 76K miles. I've only had this bike about 6 weeks now and put about 800 miles on it (I have 2 bikes and had a 92 ST1100 ~7 years ago).

I noticed that, if I'm accelerating hard from first, I almost always 'grind' 2nd gear. I don't accelerate hard like that a lot, and initially I thought this was because I wasn't used to the bike. But today I did some riding and very deliberately pulled the clutch all the way in before shifting, and found that it is a very 'rough' shift no matter what if the RPMs are high coming from first gear. At milder acceleration everything seems fine. It seems like the clutch isn't fully disengaging.

Anyone have any ideas? Bad clutch master cylinder maybe? Should I try to flush/bleed the clutch fluid first maybe?

Click to expand...

My old ST does this too. It's worn 1-2 trans dog legs and very labor intensive to pull the trans. 2-1 is fine. Any other gear is gravy. I've learned to live with it and 99.9 percent of the time I can hit it fine. But if I'm lazy I can buzz a 1-2 into a neutral. My clutch is new. New oil helps a little.

craigstys said:

My old ST does this too. It's worn 1-2 synchros and very labor intensive to pull the trans. 2-1 is fine. Any other gear is gravy. I've learned to live with it and 99.9 percent of the time I can hit it fine. But if I'm lazy I can buzz a 1-2 into a neutral. My clutch is new. New oil helps a little.

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the st does not use synchro's, it is possible the dog legs are a bit worn.

MaxPete said:

I would sure try to bleed it first - sound like either your clutch s not fully disengaging - OR - you've got a synchro problem. The first one is definitely preferred.

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There are several reasons (in addition to cost) why a syncro is not normlly employed on motorcycles; the transmissions are sequential, meaning you don't go through neutral between every gear change and you can't skip one or more gear ranges as you can with a gatered shifter. They are straight cut and not constant mesh helix cut gears, which means all the gears sets are not continuously engaged as would normally be the case in a transmission that features a synchro. The gears are small and light, resulting in very low inertia. Gear faces are narrow as the forces they carry are relatively low, all of which reduce the need to synchro the gears and still have them work effectively.

You can definately grind and clunk the gear changes on a motorcycle but the all steel gears are relatively safe from damage compared to the soft bronze shifter forks.

Shifting 'slowly' (gradually moving the lever rather than decisively selecting a gear range) is the worst thing you can do to damage the steel gears themselves, because this can cause wear or breakage of the gear dogs (the raised parts on the sides of the gear, as opposed to the gear teeth)

Hmmmm - learned something there Al - thanks!

Pete

Shady,
Also is spot on re advice etc.
I would add that every gearbox has its own speed, don't ask me to explain, it's probably witchcraft but no matter what you drive/ride the gears never move quite the same.
BMW boxer's, the older ones, were terrible until you got used to them. But once mastered were smooth enough.
What you have got in your bike is basically a crash box and just about every bike is the same.
Change gear a little earlier and enjoy the torque but it wouldn't hurt to bleed it anyway.
Hope it helps,
Upt'North.

Bush said:

The 1100 always gets a bit of a clunk going from first to second - not a grind mind you, but more of a clunk. Maybe it is your shifting technique. Do you preload the shift lever with your toe before pulling the clutch? The clutch works within a very small range of lever movement,, maybe half an inch, so pulling it all the way is totally unnecessary. Any delay in toeing the gear lever up, as you pull the clutch, can cause more "noise", especially in first to second.

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You need to preload the lever a bit when going from 1st to 2nd. Not required for the other shifts, tho.

This is about the only negative thing I have noticed on my ST1100.

Jim Van said:

You need to preload the lever a bit when going from 1st to 2nd. Not required for the other shifts, tho.

This is about the only negative thing I have noticed on my ST1100.

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Yep, noticed the same thing on my, new to me, 1998 ST1100. Never had that problem on any of my 70's/80's GS Suzuki's. Thought my bike was messed up until I started shifting with the lever preloaded. One I started shifting that way I no longer have any grinding issues. Found out later that it was common on many Honda's.

Response to an old post, I know. My 1991 Honda ATV has the same 1-2 gear crash as my ST. Preloading the shifter solved the problem. After it warms up, it goes away (on the atv that is). The ST does it all the time except at low rpm.

-Stuart

It also may help to adjust the shifter a little lower. I found I got better shifts with a lower shifter. The range of the shifter better matched the range of motion of my ankle. My shifter was a bit high and I was finding I had to lift my foot when my range of ankle motion maxed out.

Great advice here. Preloading (clutch lever and gear shifter) is essential, as is making sure your fluid is flushed and bled well.
One more tip that works for me is to make a conscious effort to pull the clutch lever from the very end of the lever (closest the ball) rather than the middle.
The extra leverage seems to help.

Bmacleod said:

It also may help to adjust the shifter a little lower. I found I got better shifts with a lower shifter. The range of the shifter better matched the range of motion of my ankle. My shifter was a bit high and I was finding I had to lift my foot when my range of ankle motion maxed out.

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This helped on mine, too.


I was gonna post the same thing (honest!), but I've learned to read complete threads before responding.

Larry Fine said:

This helped on mine, too.


I was gonna post the same thing (honest!), but I've learned to read complete threads before responding.

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Doesn't everyone do that?

- avoid too high revs in 1st gear
- lube shifter linkage & pivot
- adjust shifter linkage (if you wear small sized boots )
- check/overhaul clutch hydraulics
- check/replace hub damper (rear wheel, spline maintenance goes along while in there)
- slightly preload shifter, then move it quickly

LOL... I just noticed, this original post was almost 3 years old. Seems to be a lot of this happening these days.