FJR 1300 six gear testdriven

drrod

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Interesting "test" on a recent ride. I was riding with 2 FJR's. One a '14 with a 5 speed and the other a 17 with 6 speed.
Roll on against my ST. ST in 5th, New FJR in 6th, Old FJR in 5th. Starting from 60 mph.

- New FJR ( with it in touring mode). ST pulled ahead about 20 ft and stayed there to about 90 and then the FJ started to gain slowly. Backed off before getting much past 100.
- New FJR (with it in Sport mode) - for all intents and purposes, even.
-Old FJR - sport mode - pretty much even.

Too many variables to draw any real conclusions (things like rider weight, luggage weight, amount of fuel, etc etc) but it was fun.

Surprising how much the changing from Touring to Sport mode made on the 6 spd. Also surprising that the ST did as well as it did given that it was giving up about 20 hp and 12 lbs of torque. I had expected that it wouldn't, especially as I outweigh the other 2 riders and had a full tank of fuel.

Rod
 

the Ferret

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I haven't been over 100 mph in years, but I have ridden 70 mph a lot in the 92,000 miles I have put on the ST (5 speed) and on my CB1100 (6 speed). Sixth would certainly come in handy for me on the ST. I am one that enjoys an engine that does it's job low in the tach

FYI my CB cruises 70 mph at 3250 rpms in 6 th.
 
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What about trying a taller tire?? I put a 190/60-17 on my ST1100 and it (as best I can estimate) dropped my rpm's at 75mph about 200. At 75 I am at 4000rpm (using a gps for speed). I have no handling issues and the 1300 should have plenty of room.
 

ST Gui

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the Ferret said:
I am one that enjoys an engine that does it's job low in the tach
I am another one. Six speeds would be the one thing that would really make me want a 2018 ST1500. A taller tire would work toward that end somewhat but would punish the low end for me.
 
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I am another one. Six speeds would be the one thing that would really make me want a 2018 ST1500. A taller tire would work toward that end somewhat but would punish the low end for me.
I doubt if you would notice it unless your trying to smoke the tires on take off.
 
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I had a ST1100 back in the days and I remember the lower RPMs with a smile. I don't understand why they upped the RPMs on the ST1300?
 

the Ferret

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I am another one. Six speeds would be the one thing that would really make me want a 2018 ST1500. .
Oh yea, ST 1500 same torquey motor with a little more kick, 1 more gear, digital gear indicator, heated grips, cruise control, maybe some adjustable suspension..'CMON Honda..you can do it! I PROMISE I will buy one! I don't want to buy an FJR. You are leaving me little choice.
 

drrod

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IMO, the major drawback of adding an 6th gear, that drops the cruising rpm, is that it may necessitate a shifting down of a gear for relatively simple passes. Something that the ST does easily now in 5th. If you like shifting, for shifting sake, then that is not an issue. The ST produces a lot of usable torque. It starts to build fairly rapidly at 4,000 and stays in the fat part of the curve until 7500 rpm. Pretty much the ideal rpm range. I am not so sure that the addition of a 6th gear would be all that beneficial. I guess I have a bit of faith in the Honda engineers ( the product planners?.....not so much) in that they worked out what would be the best "cruising' rpm, taking everything into consideration. The ST motor is very understressed. They could have easily designed it to run different, put a 6 spd behind it, etc etc etc. but didn't. There is a reason it is called the Honda MOTOR company.

Talk to people with 8 spd transmissions in cars. The common complaint is the constant shifting, but 8spd looks good on the spec sheet.

I have 2 other bikes. A Blackbird with a 6 sp that is at 4,000 rpm at 70 mph and a DL650 that is about 6,000 at 70mph. Different tools to do the same job.

I find myself looking for another gear, with all three, on occasion.

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?36156-Stock-ST1300-Dyno-Run
 

the Ferret

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I cant believe anyone would reject a 6 th gear which would allow for better gas mileage, more relaxed cruising, less wear and tear on the motor because you might have to downshift once to pass someone once in awhile. I wonder how many times that happens to me ina 500 mile day. Once? Twice?

Motorcycles almost always had 3 speeds or 4 speeds prior to the mid 70s. 5 speeds were a big deal. Nobody complained about having to shift to 4 th to make a pass when the 5 speeds came out. (well someone probably did lol). Six speeds have been around a while too. My 2001 FZ-1 had one. That was 16 years ago. My 2013 CB1100 had a 5 speed, my 2014 CB1100 a 6 speed. The 6 speed bike is a better bike to ride imo. Might I have to downshift to pass somebody? Perhaps, but it really isn't a big deal. Snick down, make the pass snick up, and then enjoy a less frentic ride for the next however many miles until I find someone else to pass lol.
 

BakerBoy

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6-speed doesn't make better mileage or result in less wear and tear--it's all about the gear ratio of the gear you spend the most time in, not about whether it has 6 speeds. It could be a 4 speed with the same 4th gear ratio as the current top gear, and the engine gets no better mileage or nor worse wear. Also, if we were worried about mileage and wear and tear, would we ever run an engine up to redline?

FWIW, I have a 6-speed RT. Lots to like about the bike, lots to dislike. But, I wish it were 5 speed. As I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum, 1 is tall and the 4-5-6 gear ratios are all too closely spaced ... 5th gear could be the same ratio as the current 6th gear and the others (1 through 4) adjusted to better space them. That would make a better touring bike transmission for me.
 

the Ferret

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True it's all about ratio, but I am assuming that a 6th gear in the ST would be an overdrive gear dropping rpms at freeway speeds, not a repeat of the 4th or 5th gear that we already have. When you drop rpms for a given speed it generally uses less gas and there is less wear and tear on the engine. A set of rings only gets so many trips up and down the cylinder wall before they wear out (and other things as well..it's why race engines wear out). You can use them up fast (like a race engine) or you can use them up slowly (or less fast in this case)
 

ST Gui

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BakerBoy said:
6-speed doesn't make better mileage or result in less wear and tear
Unless one of those six speeds is an overdrive that lowers the cruising rpm significantly. And that's what ferret's post is about— a 6 th gear which would allow for better gas mileage, more relaxed cruising, less wear and tear on the motor because you might have to downshift once to pass someone once in awhile... Snick down, make the pass snick up, and then enjoy a less frentic ride... +1 ​ He's speaking specifically of a 6th gear that does make better mileage or result in less wear and tear. Or both.

With enough torque a three speed or four speed could accomplish the same thing. But that isn't the case with the ST. Which is why modern vehicles have four and more speed transmissions.

Honda MOTOR company the same company that put a 6-spd transmission in the 650 Nighthawk V65 Sabre 1800 Gold Wing and CB1100EX (and others) seems to like 4000rpm for 70mph. That combo and has always seemed frenetic to me unlike my 750 Ducati (but the Duc was a torquey twin).

On a ride today my under-stressed ST motor at 4000rpm/70mph had plenty of roll on throttle to move out smartly. More than enough to power an overdrive gear that could drop rpm to a leisurely less buzzy level. I could live with the indignity of an occasional downshift for passing.

So yeah I see the value in a 6-spd box with overdrive even if others don't.
 

dduelin

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True it's all about ratio, but I am assuming that a 6th gear in the ST would be an overdrive gear dropping rpms at freeway speeds, not a repeat of the 4th or 5th gear that we already have. When you drop rpms for a given speed it generally uses less gas and there is less wear and tear on the engine. A set of rings only gets so many trips up and down the cylinder wall before they wear out (and other things as well..it's why race engines wear out). You can use them up fast (like a race engine) or you can use them up slowly (or less fast in this case)
True in theory but in application how long do you need your ST engine to last? A 5 speed ST1300 V4 is not a race engine and will last a very very long time. Compare the dyno runs on my '05 done about 115,000 miles apart. At 170,xxx miles this engine still has no appreciable oil burn between changes and as recently as a week ago ran within 2 mph of the highest GPS speed it ever did and atmospheric conditions could account for that. There are plenty of up and down trips left in these rings.



 

the Ferret

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I suppose if you use the ST in more of the Sport part of sport-touring, higher rpms is a good thing, although peak torque is at 6250 rpms and peak hp at 7500 rpms, (if you run it to redline you are actually losing torque and hp) although there are a gazillion bikes out there more adept at sportier riding if that's your bent, But if you use the ST in the Tour part of sport touring and do long days on the road or freeway with gas stops being the limiting factor then a motor turning less rpms is a good thing ....No? If you can't stand running around at low rpms couldn't you just forgo shifting into 6th and just run around in 4th or 5th?

All a moot point, because Honda isn't going to do anything with our beloved ST.
 

dduelin

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I suppose if you use the ST in more of the Sport part of sport-touring, higher rpms is a good thing, although peak torque is at 6250 rpms and peak hp at 7500 rpms, (if you run it to redline you are actually losing torque and hp) although there are a gazillion bikes out there more adept at sportier riding if that's your bent, But if you use the ST in the Tour part of sport touring and do long days on the road or freeway with gas stops being the limiting factor then a motor turning less rpms is a good thing ....No? If you can't stand running around at low rpms couldn't you just forgo shifting into 6th and just run around in 4th or 5th?

All a moot point, because Honda isn't going to do anything with our beloved ST.
One last comment in our give-and-take replies, on long days on the road I'm ready to get off after 3 hours or so and 250-280 miles. I've done SS1000's, a BBG1500, and a 50CC on this ST and getting at best a couple mpg more at 400-500 less rpms isn't going to make that much of a difference in fuel legs. Gas stops don't figure into my limiting factors. Cruising at 70 average the ST can go just over 300 miles a tank with small reserve. If you need more range than that you aren't going to be looking a 6th gear to get it. But what do I know? I'm also riding a rev-phobic NC700X that is turning something like 4000 at 80 mph and making 50+ mpg doing so. I had to add an auxiliary tank to it to allow 250 mile range at IBA speeds.
 

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Compared to my ST1100, my ST1300 feels "busier" at cruising speed in 5th. Though Honda lowered the gearing in 5th compared to the 1100, they also increased the redline on the 13. As a percentage of redline, the 13 actually runs farther from the limit at cruise than the 11. Having said that, I would love a 6th gear above the current 5th just for the calmer cruising and likely improved gas mileage.


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drrod

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Anyone know of someone who has simply worn out an ST1300 motor, regardless of how it is ridden.
I have searched and can't find any reference to one that was in need of parts that had simply worn out (eg. piston rings, crank bearings, cam bearings, etc). Sure there have been instances where those things needed attention but virtually all of them were due to oil issues (lack of, not kind). So dropping the "cruising" rpm by 500 would mean what? an engine maybe lasting another 5k, 10k, 20k.....? On an engine that goes, at least, several hundred thousand miles with routine maintenance, is this significant? Who would find out? Highest mileage ST that I can find is 300K+ and no reported issues. I talked with my friend who used to be a Honda dealer, and he said that they had never had to repair one that had simply "worn out". He couldn't recall ever having to take one apart.

Interesting aside....the VFR1200 has a 6 spd and the 6th ratio is 0.939 which is lower than the ST's 0.83. I know, apples and oranges, but interesting .
VFR final drive 2.699. RPM @ 60mph - 3500. @70 - 4100
ST final drive 2.83. RPM @ 60mph - 3200. @ 70 - 4000

Just swagging here but maybe Honda engineers know where the motor works best, taking everything into consideration.

An interesting experiment would be to ride several different bikes but cover up the tach. Sometimes, I think the number is what is focused on, rather than the feel, but that is just me.
 
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ST Gui

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my ST1300 feels "busier" at cruising speed in 5th... I would love a 6th gear above the current 5th just for the calmer cruising and likely improved gas mileage.
THIS^ +++1. This sums up why I'd like a 6th gear. Added mileage which I might or might not appreciate and reduced engine wear that may have no practical advantage would be perks in confidence if not practice. Calmer cruising would be a big plus for me. It would be a reason for me to update to a new improved ST.

It's a little disappointing that I'd have to buy a different bike to get that solace (unless it was the NnI ST!). On occasion I've ridden near (not with) H-Ds and even at speed their engines seem relaxed. H-D riders used to speak of 'going for a putt'. Maybe they still do.

Admittedly I'm more in the Sport-TOURING camp than the SPORT-Touring or even SPORT-TOURING camps.
 
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