U-Turn technique

cdnemsguy said:

Just like the saying in aviation, a good pilot uses his superior judgement so he doesn't have to use his superior skills. All this talk about the tight turns and such is a good conversation... I am just curious if it was out of courtesy or fear of a gang lashing that no one has brought up why one would put himself into that situation in the first place, disregarding their own safety and that of his fellow riders. Anyways I don't type this out of disrespect, I just know posting signs is done generally to protect a person from themselves. Now easy on the retorts if you feel you must.

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I think that's a perfectly reasonable question. There may be lots of reasons like herd mentality, not knowing alternate routes, simply "following the leader" so I could see myself getting into that situation if I wasn't leading the ride.

But knowing that I'm not on a nimble little bike, I'm also (almost) always aware of my retreat path, especially when parking. So I'd like to think that I would have seen that I was heading into tricky retreat situation... maybe.

I also ride a bicycle and always ride past the "road closed" signs in case I can get by. Riding a car-free road is an extra treat. Of course, turning around a bicycle is a whole different animal.

My thoughts:

Loose surface is not my medium.

It is infinitely easier to push the bike than to pick it up multiple times.

Anyone who talks to me about getting into motorcycles or who are new to motorcycles gets the following advice:

Go on an "Off Road Course" to learn to handle a bike on the slippy stuff (they provide the bike so dropping it isn't an issue ). I recommend doing it every couple of years as a refresher. It's also great fun!!

cdnemsguy said:

Just like the saying in aviation, a good pilot uses his superior judgement so he doesn't have to use his superior skills. All this talk about the tight turns and such is a good conversation... I am just curious if it was out of courtesy or fear of a gang lashing that no one has brought up why one would put himself into that situation in the first place, disregarding their own safety and that of his fellow riders. Anyways I don't type this out of disrespect, I just know posting signs is done generally to protect a person from themselves. Now easy on the retorts if you feel you must.

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As I said in the opening post, I didn't want this to devolve into a finger pointing session. Of course it was not a great decision, and we will joke about it at our weekly breakfasts before riding. The guy who made up the ride drove the entire route with his wife a couple of days before the route - no construction. In our own community, we have signs posted saying road construction will commence on such and such a day, and nothing happens for more than a week afterward. This same group has encountered 'road closed' signs before, and has seen no, or some light activity that enabled us to continue on the 'closed road' with waves and thumbs up from the workers (when and if they are present). We usually stop, evaluate the situation and then proceed at very low speeds.

Our group paused on the crest of the hill and some decided to go for the relatively large, flat appearing area before the construction to turn around. I was the only one who had major difficulty - no one else dropped their bike - though we all had varying levels of difficulty. And not everyone descended to the flat turn around point. This was an individual decision. I paid the price for my actions - though I could not see any other outcome had I tried to turn around atop the hill in the narrow space available. Hindsight is 20/20. U'ing on the crest might have led to dropping the bike off the road - who knows? And, like Dave said, I certainly need a lot more practice turning my bike in confined areas, and will work on that this summer.

JQL said:

Anyone who talks to me about getting into motorcycles or who are new to motorcycles gets the following advice:

Go on an "Off Road Course" to learn to handle a bike on the slippy stuff (they provide the bike so dropping it isn't an issue ). I recommend doing it every couple of years as a refresher. It's also great fun!!

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Great advice if you are young and supple. At age 71, I don't bounce very well, so I manage risk by knowing my limitations.

I like the description and demonstration of u-turn technique in this MCrider.com video.
MCrider.com video.

cdnemsguy said:

I am just curious if it was out of courtesy or fear of a gang lashing that no one has brought up why one would put himself into that situation in the first place,

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I'd like to think it was out of common courtesy and having a keen grasp of the obvious (commodities sorely lacking in a lot of online forums) that this conversation didn't devolve into a typical 'just don't do that in the first place'. And let's not forget superior active moderation.

Of course anybody who gets themselves in a bind wishes they hadn't done so in the first place. But there are occasions that what seemed like a good idea at the time really wasn't and the best laid plans etc. And there are great pilots who've made not so great decisions. You learn about flying from that.

The OP already discussed that aspect. What good does it do to cover that ground needlessly? If someone made an obviously flawed decision and still doesn't realize it then pointing out what should be obvious would be in order. That isn't the case here. And a lot of good information has been exchanged as a result.

Teach him to fish. Don't tell him what he knows tell him what he doesn't know. If he's a friend do it in a friendly manner. If he's not do it that way anyway.

Fortunately this isn't Twitter or YouTube or any number of forums where someone admitting to an error in judgement is assailed with myriad dumb*** hateful needless comments because anonymity gives commenters courage to lash out. Common courtesy is underrated.

ST Gui said:

Common courtesy is underrated.

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It definitely is and again the post was not one to throw the point out of call anyone a dumb ***** for making the wrong choice. I do, like I believe everyone does, make a minimum of one poor decision per day, and this is how we learn. My point to bring this forward was not to finger point, it was to bring forward the buried subject in this post about thinking before reacting, so in other words be proactive instead of reactive. This is why we all open up and admit our faults on this forum, so others learn. That we read the stories about the tip overs and wonder actually how that can happen, until it happens to you. I see that this started another discussion and as I stated in the post there was no disrespect intended.

Anyways, my 25 cents into the pivoting discussion as an old motocross racer, get the foot far out front on the turning side and shift a bit of weight that direction, use power to get the back end around while counter steering towards your foot. Its hard to explain in words and it might not work in all situations, but from what I have read here that what I am thinking may work 80% of the time. A lot of practice in an open parking lot with this and you may get it. This is a difficult situation as the front end of these heavy bikes combined with the smooth tire may make this only work 30% of the time.

Planning has nothing to do with getting into a bad situation, an accident, a tree fall, a mud slide, or an angry animal (had a deer challenge me in the road, and even charge me), sometimes you have no choice and you must turn or ride through things we normally would not do. Lets just focus on how to get out of bad situations, instead of pointing out "he shouldn't have put him self into that situation" etc.

Thanks for attaching the link to the video. Anyone else ever notice that he has one LARGE pupil, and one small one?

Yup - tough problem. Spinning it around using engine power would be....exciting, but risky in my view. I would have opted for either the centre stand spin (I've done that on the concrete floor of my garage - and it does work OK if the surface you're on is suitable) - or asked for help for passersby.

In my experience, most people are more than willing to help if asked politely (politeness is essential, because it is sort of hard for a 200+ lb six-foot man in a black leather jacket and a helmet to appear sexy or invitingly helpless....)

My own tip-over (so much nicer a term than "drop" - don't you think?) occurred on a sandy road shoulder and there was NO WAY I could pick that porky old Honda up myself because it just kept sliding further off the road in the sand.

YUK!

MajorTom said:

I like the description and demonstration of u-turn technique in this MCrider.com video.
MCrider.com video.

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Excellent!

What is he calling that little turn left just before turning right maneuver that he says may be helpful in bigger bikes? It looks like he's using it to help force the bike over into the turn.

It seems more like a crutch than a skill or something you'd do if you didn't set up properly. I need to practice U-turns and maybe :shudder: full lock to lock turns. Using that little jink seems like an 'oops' maneuver. Otherwise I liked the video.

I didn't watch the video but it's helpful to make a short juke or jog to the opposite side of the intended U turn just before leaning into it. If the turn space is limited it helps set up the turn.

ST Gui said:

What is he calling that little turn left just before turning right maneuver that he says may be helpful in bigger bikes? It looks like he's using it to help force the bike over into the turn.

It seems more like a crutch than a skill or something you'd do if you didn't set up properly. I need to practice U-turns and maybe :shudder: full lock to lock turns. Using that little jink seems like an 'oops' maneuver. Otherwise I liked the video.

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The bike version of the "scandanavian flick"??!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL85fZlYLQ0

drrod said:

The bike version of the "scandanavian flick"??!!

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That's very close to the Tokyo Drift; But no. It's flicking the front wheel slightly in the opposite direction of the turn and then back and completing the U-turn.

One of my favorite drift scenes is in Ronin where a big Mercedes and another car are whipping around somewhere in France. Great scene.

dduelin said:

If the turn space is limited it helps set up the turn.

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Maybe this bugs me because I see so many drivers do this. It sets up the turn for them because they weren't paying attention in the first place. In my ute I made a couple of errors in judgement when starting to pass a car making such a turn (usually to their left) only to have them swing right and come a little bit closer than I care for.

Anyhow I still can't understand what he's calling that little jink. I'll have to break out the headphones and see if that helps.

ST Gui said:

..............Maybe this bugs me because I see so many drivers do this. It sets up the turn for them because they weren't paying attention in the first place. In my ute I made a couple of errors in judgement when starting to pass a car making such a turn (usually to their left) only to have them swing right and come a little bit closer than I care for.

Anyhow I still can't understand what he's calling that little jink. I'll have to break out the headphones and see if that helps.

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He doesn't really say why just that the dip helps get heavier bikes fall into the turn. To enter a tight left hand U turn we start a left turn by pushing on the left bar. At these slow speeds it's TOO MUCH countersteering and the bike starts to fall over to the left thus setting up a tighter radius turn but briefly it starts right as the front wheel describes a track to the outside before we swing the bars back to the left. If you are riding along the extreme edge of the roadway you don't have room to do this, the brief start to the right, and the left U turn will probably be a little wider than without the initial juke to the right. It doesn't have anything to do with your pet peeve.

dduelin said:

At these slow speeds it's TOO MUCH countersteering and the bike starts to fall over to the left thus setting up a tighter radius turn but briefly it starts right as the front wheel describes a track to the outside before we swing the bars back to the left.

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At low speeds, no counter steering is required. I was guessing he was just used to counter steering and continued using that movement since it was muscle memory. He said it helps him so whatever works for you/him. I didn't really see a lot of counter weighting either - seemed like he could have used much more. But he does nice, tight smooth U turns - moral of the story is practice.

jonz said:

At low speeds, no counter steering is required. I was guessing he was just used to counter steering and continued using that movement since it was muscle memory. He said it helps him so whatever works for you/him. I didn't really see a lot of counter weighting either - seemed like he could have used much more. But he does nice, tight smooth U turns - moral of the story is practice.

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You are both correct and miss the point. By initiating the turn with countersteering the resultant "dip" results in a tighter radius turn than without the dip. If we take a slow riding course like Ride Like A Pro or SMART the dip really helps in the offset cone weave where it's necessary to get turned quick and tight in a succession of turns.

Igofar said:

..... Anyone else ever notice that he has one LARGE pupil, and one small one?......

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You asked for it.

So here is the story behind "That eye".