ABS vs. Non-ABS Brakes

dduelin said:

Originally Posted by wjbertrand


Easy enough to say....



I agree completely.

Click to expand...

And that is why I won't buy a modern bike without ABS.
On a practice course I expect I can out brake ABS. But on a ride home from work, in the rain, after inventory, while listening to the wife tell me the plumbing is leaking, with tires that are almost ready to replace; I want ABS, I need ABS.

playinatwork said:

On a practice course I expect I can out brake ABS.

Click to expand...

Usually true, but very difficult to do on your first try. In testing I did with MCN it took a very skilled rider (Lee Parks) several tries to achieve the shortest stopping distance. I could get very close to the ABS distance after 2-3 tries without activating the ABS, but was never able to actually beat it, unlike Lee. On the street "wait, wait, I did't go yet" does not apply.

Neither does "wait, wait I didn't practice that". If you wait until you have 1 chance to pull it off then you probably can't do it. Aiming for the license plate of the car ahead isn't exactly high performance riding.

Lee Parks presumably had a motorcycle to call his own unlike the test bike he rides for the first time. He's allowed a few tries. The guy with 10,000 20,000 miles 159,000 miles on his personal bike has ample time to explore What Ifs.

"I was not ready " is out the second you put the bike in gear

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

dduelin said:

The guy with 10,000 20,000 miles 159,000 miles on his personal bike has ample time to explore What Ifs.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, with 300,000+ miles on ST1100s I haven't explored all the 'What Ifs' that mobile phone booths and the like are going to throw at me. Just like today - 4 way Stop on a 4 lane, driver coming from the other direction (I got there first) decides to turn right in front of me with no signal and no warning - slam and jam. At lunch, Howdy Doody in his beater decides to turn right in front of me as if I didn't exist - again, no warning, no signal. Now I am a bit more prepared for that 'What If' only because I was fortunate and grabbed a handful of brake. Not something I think I could have practiced much. However in both cases, my concealed carry did come to mind ... ;-)

No, a million miles is never enough to see every situation UP. Disconcerting to me is experienced riders taking an apparent position that learning or practicing high level skills and street survival tactics & strategies is of little importance. Riders coming up need to know the same things that result in long riding careers, not just slam and jam the ABS.

I don't know if that's the position as much as realizing there's just no 'practice' for some situations. As I said earlier, an ABS is just another piece of safety 'kit' (juts like practicing, helmets, etc.) that I prefer to have. But the piece of safety gear I'd really like to have is an instant 'vaporizer' ray gun so when drivers do some stupid things, I could just vaporize them so they don't make the mistake again ....

As riders everytime we go for a ride we are practicing whether we know it or not. Everytime we doing something the same way it becomes habit, that is whether it is the right way or wrong way. Practicing braking is relatively easy in the general sense. How do I brake for corners, how do I brake at intersections and stops, how do I start and take off in a straight line every time, how do I maneuver the bike at crawling speed, etc? We can practice high speed and hard braking under safe conditions, (taking our braking systems to the limits) clean parking lots, a stretch of deserted road, the track, etc. But in doing so we already know what we are preparing for. But those emergency situations we can only rely the skills (the habits good or bad) that we have developed during practice regardless of what we ride. Excellent riding skills will always outweigh technology on these machines.

"The superior rider will use superior experience to avoid situations that require superior skills."

Or something like that.

Wahrsuul said:

"The superior rider will use superior experience to avoid situations that require superior skills."

Or something like that.

Click to expand...

If they get the chance to .... Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.

dduelin said:

No, a million miles is never enough to see every situation UP. Disconcerting to me is experienced riders taking an apparent position that learning or practicing high level skills and street survival tactics & strategies is of little importance. Riders coming up need to know the same things that result in long riding careers, not just slam and jam the ABS.

Click to expand...

This is a common but I believe incorrect view. I don't think anyone actually advocates reduced skill levels, ABS is there for a back up, we are all human, not robots and no matter your skill level, mistakes and unforeseen situations still happen. It's not an either/or argument, it's both in my view.

As I heard one old biker put it: You start riding with a big bag of luck, and and empty bag of experience. The idea is to fill the experience bag before emptying the luck.

Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

The rear wheel is just a big fan used to keep the Rider cool and his butt relaxed. If in doubt... watch. When it locks up or slides out you can actually see the rider start sweating and pucker marks are left on the seat.

Old Ninja said:

I almost bought a police model from a local dealer that sells them and they all have ABS. They ask $2k for almost any of the STs they have and they usually have six or more every time I stop by. But they're all over 100k and that scared me off...

Click to expand...

Just curious - what dealer was that? I'm not sure I would let 100K+ bother me for a $2K asking price on a maintained bike.

I'm firmly in the ABS camp. Training and practice is all fine, but I'm not aware of any training where they deliberately startle you into making mistakes (except for maybe that training where they turn on red lights suddenly to tell you to make lane changes). Nor am I too sure I want to have that startle response trained out of me for fear I'll be too slow when the need arises.

ST_Jim said:

Just curious - what dealer was that? I'm not sure I would let 100K+ bother me for a $2K asking price on a maintained bike.

Click to expand...

Since I don't do my own wrenching (and even if I did) I think a 100+K miles on a police motor is a lot. As in a lot more wear and tear than most here would ever inflict on a bike over 100+K miles.

There's maintained ('we're gonna off these at xxx mi anyway) and then there's maintained (I'm going to ride this bike forever and may get one of those 300K awards!).

Not saying you can't find a gem but you need a good loupe and/or maybe a lot of sweat equity.

Id say $2000 for a good running ST1300 is a good deal as long as you can work on it and as long as you dont mind the extra work you have to do vis a vis the ST1100. Im thinking in particular the clutch slave cylinder!

ST_Jim said:

Just curious - what dealer was that? I'm not sure I would let 100K+ bother me for a $2K asking price on a maintained bike.

Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay in replying to you on this...

The dealer is a local place here in the San Fernando valley area of Los Angeles called Hollywood Motors that seems to have a line on city police vehicles of all types. Address is [FONT=arial, sans-serif]21600 Roscoe Blvd, Canoga Park, CA 91304. Phone number is 818-888-2200. They're a small dealer, but they always have a dozen or more police bikes, mostly our STs and older Kawasaki 1000s. They take out all of the police radios, sirens, and lights, but leave most everything else, including light mounting brackets and crash bars. But you lose your passenger seat to a now empty cowling, which you could refill if you want... The place has a little bit of a sketchy feel tho, so it's very much a case of buyer beware. It's definitely fun to go and look and test ride.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Also, this a long running discussion, that I also asked about here several years ago. There are strong opinions on both sides of buying a used police model of our ST. Good luck![/FONT]