Converting Linked Brakes Back To Traditional Motorcycle Brakes.

I carry a set of clamps that will allow me to disable the linked brakes via stopping hydraulic fluid flow in a hose. But this is like a tourniquet in first aid. Absolutely last resort! Once applied you can kiss the appendage goodbye. Whether arm, leg or brake hose.

technotony007 said:

It can be a simple conversation, as I considered this before the fabulous mr john heath helped me .

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Thanks for the mention Tony. We had a good day together sorting out your locked brake issues, but I must point out to anyone looking in that we were not considering or even talking about converting the ST1300 brakes back to traditional, as per Trump's post. I know it wasn't your intention to imply this. Your locked front brakes were an odd problem which seemed to result from incorrectly supplied replacement parts.

Trump said:

Given all the above it occurs to me the solution is to convert the system back to conventional motorcycle brakes. Unfortunately Im not smart enough to figure out how to do that. Has anyone given this any thought? Im looking for a simple, cheap, eloquent procedure hopefully making maximum use of existing components.

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So for anyone else looking in, I really would not recommend to anyone that they change the ST1300 braking system. As it stands, the ST1300 has a very well thought out and a very effective system for bringing such a heavy bike to a stop under perfect control. The distribution of braking forces between front and back is excellent. If serviced properly, the SMC is of no more concern than any other master cylinder, and will work effectively for many years. The issue arises because not many 'services' cover everything that needs to be covered to keep the system in tip-top condition. The faults then develop over time. The SMC suffers as it needs 'special' treatment, and proper access to the brake lines require removal of the faring.

If there is any doubt about the SMC behaving as it should, now or in the future, then change it for a new complete unit for less than the price of a pair of tyres. Keep it well maintained and you won't have the problems that you read about.

Please do not even consider messing with the system - you may live to regret it. Then again, you may not. (See Al Gully's post).

Bush said:

No confusion on my part, however, I'm pretty sure the later model 1100 ABS bikes also had the LBS, so that's why I said get a non ABS 1100. I don't think the standard 1100 ever had just LBS, but I may be wrong there.

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96 and up have linked brake system

Al st1100 said:

96 and up have linked brake system

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1996 and up non-abs do not have linked brakes. I have one.


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Trump said:

Ive searched for the poll I read that said 50% OF THOSE RESPONDING had trouble with their linked brakes. I cant find it but will keep trying. Im not good at searching!

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you might want to pol all the problems with a st, fuel pumps, speed sensors, ecu's, coolant hoses, 5 way vacuum tees and start redesigning it all !!

Ashley said:

1996 and up non-abs do not have linked brakes. I have one.


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Same here. 1996 and no LBS.

Same here, 98 and not linked, isn't that what your right foot is for?
Upt'North.

I found this Honda document a few years back and tucked it away for future reference. It briefly describes and illustrates the key development of the Pan European from 1989 to 2000. The sequence will probably be the same in the USA, but the dates may be different of course.

It is still there where I found it - Link - on the Honda Owner's Club website. If you haven't seen this before, it is well worth a look.

I'm sorry, but messing the ST1300 linked ABS brake system is simply a bad idea from which no good can come.

MaxPete said:

I'm sorry, but messing the ST1300 linked ABS brake system is simply a bad idea from which no good can come.

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I tend to agree though it may be possible that a brilliant rider could stop or maneuver better with unlinked brakes. Not that I actually believe that. It's mentioned only because of the Never Say Never Contingency.

As the OP's concern is reliability and complexity I'll put up with additional maintenance and possible expense over unlinked brakes.

I think you will be able to do it very easy,the front brake operates the 2 outer pistons on the calipers,hence when you bleed them you do the top bleed nipples,I can’t see why you can’t put a bolt in the middle banjo to plug the smc,thus fluid won’t be able to pass out,on the rest caliper again the 2 outer are pistons operated from the rear pedal,so a bolt in the middle banjo would plug that,the only other problem I see is you may need a single banjo on the rear master cylinder but I think it should work,I’m about to strip my smc due to sticking back brake,don’t mind a seal kit but I’m not paying sill money from Honda to sort out this common problem,best part of £300 smc,£550 proportion valve etc etc

Welcome to the forums, Nick - I see you have been around a while, but as an 'observer'.

Oops - the thread is about 6 years old and we haven't seent eh original poster for about a year. I ownder if he went ahead and did this conversion. Not a good idea though.

I can't let your comments go unchallenged though as they contain some inaccurate information. Just for the sake of anyone else tuning in and thinking the same thing.

Nick 1200 said:

I think you will be able to do it very easy, the front brake operates the 2 outer pistons on the calipers, hence when you bleed them you do the top bleed nipples

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That is correct. Outer pistons on botht he left and right caliper.

Nick 1200 said:

I can’t see why you can’t put a bolt in the middle banjo to plug the smc,thus fluid won’t be able to pass out

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That is not correct. If you put a normal bolt through the Banjo on the middle piston of the front left caliper, it will stop fluid flowing into the front left centre piston, but it will not stop fluid flowing through to the SMC and to the circuit that feeds the rear caliper outer pistons. That Banjo has two tubes attached to it - an inlet and an outlet, so fluid will flow around the outside of the bolt to the outlet.

Nick 1200 said:

... on the rest (rear ?) caliper again the 2 outer are pistons operated from the rear pedal, so a bolt in the middle banjo would plug that

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The two outer pistons on the rear caliper are operated by the action of the SMC in normal use. In the garage, they are operated by the rear brake pedal.

I think that you are suggesting plugging the banjo on the centre piston of the rear caliper. That banjo is served directly from one of the lines from the Rear master cylinder, and the piston is operated by the brake pedal.

Nick 1200 said:

the only other problem I see is you may need a single banjo on the rear master cylinder but I think it should work,I’m about to strip my smc due to sticking back brake,don’t mind a seal kit but I’m not paying sill money from Honda to sort out this common problem,best part of £300 smc,£550 proportion valve etc etc

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The bike has a very well balanced braking system which is extremely effective at bringing a third of a ton +passengers to a rapid, controlled stop. it needs to additional controlled stopping power prvided by the linked brake system. When you apply the front brake lever only, you have 6 pistons providing the braking force.

The complete SMC is £242 inc VAT. And for an older bike is probably an essential item to replace. The problem isn't with the SMC, it is with the people who have not maintained them properly. Buy a used bike, you can expect to have to replace this component.

The Proportional Control Valve is not something that I have heard much about in terms of failing, or needing replacement. Who said that you needed to replace that ?

Take a bit of time looking around - there are other things that could be causing the rear brakes to drag. Caliper slider pins, badly fitted pad springs, too much grease, after market pads, faults on the front calipers, incorrectly installed front wheel, ....

If you need to be careful with the funds, then don't go wasting it by throwing at at something that isn't the cause of the problem. You don't want to be spending money on the SMC if it turns out that someone has not tightened the front wheel bolts in the correct sequence.

And before you think - that wouldn't affect the rear caliper ? Oh yes it can.

Take a look at the Articles / ST1300 section. 'Avoiding the pitfalls' is a good place to start.

So the rear brake lever only operates the centre piston in the caliper,so if you ran both line off the rear master to caliper that would work all pistons,

Nick 1200 said:

So the rear brake lever only operates the centre piston in the caliper,so if you ran both line off the rear master to caliper that would work all pistons,

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Directly, yes. But if you open the outer piston bleed valve and press the brake pedal, then it pumps fluid.
In effect the rear pedal already operates all three pistons. One directly, and two indirectly. It also operates two pistons at the front. One immediately, one subject to a pressure delay to help avoid fork leg dive.

I'll let you work out what is going on with the fluid. I'm not suggesting any of this as as a solution, nor would I want you to take it this way. What I was trying to point out is that there is a lot to know about this braking system. And even if you knew it inside out and knew the balance of braking forces between the front and rear wheels in different conditions, it's a serious business to prat around with them, and it could bear consequences regarding insurance, and it may have financial and legal consequences if your efforts are deemed to be the cause of an accident or injury.

So for example - if you made one master cylinder pump out all three pistons in the rear caliper - you would have to work out what you needed to change, if anything. And if you did that, you would have removed one of the essential safety features built into the system. And this is for what ? Because you heard that the SMC has a design fault and you want to do away with it to save money. It doesn't have a design fault. It is super sensitive to people not replacing brake fluid, not following the correct procedures and not maintaining it properly.

Entirely up to you Nick. People on here - including me - will help you to identify your rear brake binding problem, which may or may not be the SMC. I would be very surprised if anyone would want to help you mess out with a perfectly good braking system.

I have had a number of VFR's and they also have the linked braking system but not many problems have been reported regarding the Smc . I am not sure if the part numbers are the same but I know that they fit the same on either bike . I guess the sport bikes might get the fluid changed on a more regular basis but in the great white north they still sit for an extended period of the year ,like winter time .

gmtech94 said:

I have had a number of VFR's and they also have the linked braking system but not many problems have been reported regarding the Smc . I am not sure if the part numbers are the same but I know that they fit the same on either bike . I guess the sport bikes might get the fluid changed on a more regular basis but in the great white north they still sit for an extended period of the year ,like winter time .

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It seems that a lot of the isssues with the SMC are as a result of poor fluid maintenance.

Fluid absorbs moisture from the air and microscopically through the hoses (apparently). The fluid gets 'wet' and can get to the point where the boiling point drops to be a risk in the high pressure braking system. Worse than that though, it develops into a sludge and even forms crytsals. The wet can also allow corrosion to develop on the inside of bores which impact on the movement of the pistons. On the ST1300 (and the VFR looks to be similar), the opening to the SMC is a place where water can pool. It is protected by a substantial rubber boot which is held in place by a strong circlip inside the top hat shaped rubber boot. This is really quite difficult to replace properly when it is on the bike. So some attempts to put silicone grease inside the boot actually end up allowing water to get past the seal.

The bottom line is that if you don't know about what can happen, you are not prepared to prevent it. So get rid of all old fluid every year - 18 months. Sluice the fluid out from behind the pistons in the calipers - just by pushing them out with new fluid and then pushing the pistons back to flush it out - do it a couple of times to make sure it is all changed. Make sure the drain holes and channels are clear, and if you must remove the boot, then make sure you don't rip it and make sure that it is properly seated when you put it back. Tilt the SMC and make sure that it is exercised when the bleed valve is opened to give it its full range of travel, and to get rid of the fluid that isn't 'in the flow'. It sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't really - but it is more than just pumping through new fluid to replace the old.

Any doubts about the SMC - just replace it while they are still available. They don't last forever.

I understand the desire to be Master of Your Own Domain somewhat similar to DCT vs manual shifting. But has anyone who's successfully de-linked any Honda LBS found a measurable increase in control or performance? Not being a cutting edge rider in the least being on an LBS vs non-LBS bike I probably wouldn't even be notice a difference. A system without an SMC means one less moving part to maintain but proper maintenance goes far to stave off SMC problems as John mentioned.

I take it you must be all getting your bikes serviced at Honda,In here in Sunny devon I know of most people who have had Honda linked brakes all have had problems,the same is said for Bmw and their abs,costs lots to sort,and pence to delete,I delinked my old varadero 1000 and the brakes worked out better,you don’t want linked brakes on gravel roads much simpler having just and a back and a separate front,easier to find faults,easier to bleed,

Nick 1200 said:

I take it you must be all getting your bikes serviced at Honda.
Here in Sunny devon I know of most people who have had Honda linked brakes all have had problems,

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Aha, a problem identified and a diagnosis all in the same post.

I don't believe that there is such a thing as having a bike 'serviced at Honda'.
As far as I can tell, there are bike dealers who pay to have a Honda franchise, and they have access to Honda technical expertise, if they ask for it.

But the service centres in my experience do not necessarily know the detailed ins and outs of how to service a particular model, especially a model which was last produced 9 years ago. They often assume similarities with other bikes, but sometime such assumptions are invalid.

So I have experience of them installing wheel bearings incorrectly, inflating tyres to the wrong pressure, putting tyres on the wrong way round, driving in bearings incorrectly (side loading), reinstalling fairing incorrectly, failing to recognise a clutch lever bush incorrectly installed, failing to apply sealant to the half moon cylinder head cover, .....

On the other hand, they have the skills and tools to carry out work that would be a first for me, so I will take in parts, ride in a bike with no fairing, talk to the engineer that is assigned etc - but mostly I do it myself.

As I said - its not the design, it is the service that is the issue in many cases. I just try to help them to get it right.

Nick 1200 said:

I take it you must be all getting your bikes serviced at Honda,In here in Sunny devon I know of most people who have had Honda linked brakes all have had problems,the same is said for Bmw and their abs,costs lots to sort,and pence to delete,I delinked my old varadero 1000 and the brakes worked out better,you don’t want linked brakes on gravel roads much simpler having just and a back and a separate front,easier to find faults,easier to bleed,

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Respectfully, I couldn’t disagree more. Many riders participating in forums are DIY owners looking for help and guidance in sorting and maintaining their bikes. My belief that owners of linked brake bikes with problems are dealing with the consequences of neglected or poorly done servicing. My own LBS Hondas (3 different models) have been trouble free for a combined 255,000 miles. On the BMW side two RTs have accumulated 331,000 miles without significant problems and the R100 120,000. Honda’s LBS systems are brilliant in application. With delay and proportioning control valves pressure on levers or pedals applies little pressure on the linked side so using brakes on low traction or at low speeds is transparent for skilled riders though the less so have something to blame for their upsets.