Converting Linked Brakes Back To Traditional Motorcycle Brakes.

OP
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I appreciate all of your comments, even though what has been said already occurs to me. Ive had no trouble with this bike. However I read the poll here and was surprised to read 50% of owners have had trouble with the linked brakes. These troubles include locking the rear wheel so the bike cant move and the rear brake hose catching fire. Yikes! One would think someone would explore the possibility of what would need to be done to convert back to conventional brakes. Apparently not. (but if you have Im all ears!) Perhaps its just not feasible. I dont know hence the post.
 
OP
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Sell the 1300 and go buy a nice non ABS 1100. You'll also eliminate a number of other problem areas commonly found with the 1300. :)
True but I know how this bikes been ridden and maintained. Its in tip top condition and never been abused. A used ST1100 would be an unknown quantity!
 

SteveST1300

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I appreciate all of your comments, even though what has been said already occurs to me. Ive had no trouble with this bike. However I read the poll here and was surprised to read 50% of owners have had trouble with the linked brakes. These troubles include locking the rear wheel so the bike cant move and the rear brake hose catching fire. Yikes! One would think someone would explore the possibility of what would need to be done to convert back to conventional brakes. Apparently not. (but if you have Im all ears!) Perhaps its just not feasible. I dont know hence the post.
https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?106729-Secondary-Master-Cylinder-FAILURE! This is the poll I found its only 101 votes that is nowhere near 50% failure rate its not even 50% of the votes. How long have you owned your ST? I think you are over thinking the problem there have been SMC failures but I think its far less common than you are thinking.
 
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Trump,
This has been done with BMW's whose ABS is probably more prone to issues than Honda's.
I think the K75's, K100's and K1100's are regularly advertised for sale with ABS removed as a positive selling point. This is in the UK, and I don't think it would be an issue getting one through the yearly MOT because if ABS is not fitted it's not tested.
I think you are ahead of your time, because when they are more difficult to fix, someone will figure out; after all you are not dealing with a bike that was never sold as non-abs.
Upt'North.
 

T_C

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Ive had no trouble with this bike. However I read the poll here and was surprised to read 50% of owners have had trouble with the linked brakes.
You mean 50% of those responding? Almost 15k current and former owners have accounts here. How many people participated in the poll?
Squeaky wheel makes more noise then a smooth one.

I maintain my brakes, never participated in a brake poll (that I can remember).
 

technotony007

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It can be a simple conversation , as I considered this before the fabulous mr john heath helped me . if its down to cost :

As a suggestion , I would purchase 6 double banjo bolts , 12 washers, and self build hydraulic fittings and some braided hydraulic hosing.

basically you isolate and lock the SMC connections single banjos.

remove the ABS system.

Remove all Honda manufactured steel pipework lines, Valve blocks ,etc.

Double banjo the front master cylinder with two hydraulic lines down to both front callipers. Then make hydraulic link hoses on each calliper which connects both pistons chambers together.

Rear the same process with the rear master cylinder..

Issues that will follow now ,


The front end will dive , causing instability issues with suspension.

This will be a nightmare in wet , with the large potential of the front sweeping away under breaking , especially through bends.

You would probably need to alter all the settings on the front end suspension or respring to stronger / upgraded springs to cure this , but with the position of the engine and the centre of gravity / weight sharing axis of the bike , this would need some serious expertise to do.

unless you think you can handle the difference in the way the bike is to handle.

My advice would be to try and repair the good system that is already there.

just my thoughts thou.

regards

tony
 
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Sell the 1300 and go buy a nice non ABS 1100. You'll also eliminate a number of other problem areas commonly found with the 1300. :)
I've noticed that you and a few other members replying to this thread appear to be confusing LBS with ABS. These systems are independent of one another - basically, the two systems function independent of each other. Does the ST1100 have linked brakes?
 

Blrfl

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I would not like to be in the position of not being able to service them nor at the mercy of the dealers (who dont see many of these bikes) Also, as these machines age I have to believe these troubles will only become more likely.
The single common problem with the brakes on this bike is the secondary master cylinder getting gummed up, and honestly, I wouldn't go so far as to call it prevalent. Everything else is just standard hydraulic plumbing, and nobody with well-maintained bikes seems to be having any other problems. The first 1100s with linked brakes are now old enough to drink, and with a very similar system aren't having problems, either.

You can solve the at-the-mercy-of-dealers problem by learning to service your bike. It's not rocket science, even on an ST. The service manual is very comprehensive and there's no shortage of information and knowledgeable people willing to help you out.

Then too since Honda doesnt make them anymore at some point parts might not be available.
The last 1300s Honda imported into the U.S. were model year 2012, so U.S. law prohibits that train from sailing for at least another five years.

If you're that concerned about a future, unrecoverable SMC failure, the part used on pre-2008 models was improved and is available as an entire assembly from Honda. The $145 to put one on the shelf seems like a a pretty modest investment to hedge against losing access to the part.

Given all the above it occurs to me the solution is to convert the system back to conventional motorcycle brakes. Unfortunately Im not smart enough to figure out how to do that.
...Which is all the reason you should need to not do it. A lot goes into the design of brake systems, even on a non-linked bike.

--Mark
 

W0QNX

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I suppose that could happen I changed my SMC a while back and it should be good for at least another 80-100k miles bike will then have over 250k miles. If the rear brake should lock up simply release some pressure by cracking open a bleed valve on the rear caliper and don't use the rear brake pedal. This will get you home as was already said just ride these bikes are bullet proof by trying to convert this complex system you will probably do more harm than good.
I don't think bleeding the rear will get you much further down the road. As soon as you hit the front the rear will be right back to clamped down, that's what the SMC does, apply rear brakes. I kind of tested this just last week when my rear pads were making that terrible metal to metal grind noise. Fully seating the worn pads kept them off the disc for less than 2 miles of "city" driving. I replaced the pads once the dealer opened later that morning.

A locked rear caliper requires attention before the bike can be rode more than a few feet. This issue is entirely "over thinked" in this thread.

My SMC has never been torn apart and cleaned, never been sprayed down with any cleaner and neither has any of the wheel calipers and they still work at 221,000 miles as designed.
 
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Does the ST1100 have linked brakes?
No confusion on my part, however, I'm pretty sure the later model 1100 ABS bikes also had the LBS, so that's why I said get a non ABS 1100. I don't think the standard 1100 ever had just LBS, but I may be wrong there.
 
OP
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Ive searched for the poll I read that said 50% OF THOSE RESPONDING had trouble with their linked brakes. I cant find it but will keep trying. Im not good at searching!
 
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Yeah, if you don't like the technology/design of the bike.. simply sell it and get something you feel will last longer and be easier to maintain.. yes, the brake system is 'involved' and I do wish Honda would not have made it so.. however, it's almost identical to the goldwing and both bikes have had a ton of miles on them.. can there be issues w/brakes, absolutely, but most of those can be traced back to someone NOT performing scheduled maint... also, depending on your locale, YOUR scheduled maint may need to be adjusted to once a year vs every other year... depending on what maint we are talking about...
:plus1: Best Advice/Description Ever!
 
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I suppose that could happen I changed my SMC a while back and it should be good for at least another 80-100k miles bike will then have over 250k miles. If the rear brake should lock up simply release some pressure by cracking open a bleed valve on the rear caliper and don't use the rear brake pedal. This will get you home as was already said just ride these bikes are bullet proof by trying to convert this complex system you will probably do more harm than good.
While the description of releasing pressure by cracking open a bleed valve is good, the "don't use the rear brake pedal" theory won't work because of the linked braking system. When you use the hand lever, it activates the 4 front pistons, which causes the SMC to activate, sending fluid to the rear brakes causing them to lock up again or drag. Does not matter which brake you use, they work together. Foot lever stops the front wheel, and the hand lever causes the SMC to stop the rear wheel.
 
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It can be a simple conversation , as I considered this before the fabulous mr john heath helped me . if its down to cost :

As a suggestion , I would purchase 6 double banjo bolts , 12 washers, and self build hydraulic fittings and some braided hydraulic hosing.

basically you isolate and lock the SMC connections single banjos.

remove the ABS system.

Remove all Honda manufactured steel pipework lines, Valve blocks ,etc.

Double banjo the front master cylinder with two hydraulic lines down to both front callipers. Then make hydraulic link hoses on each calliper which connects both pistons chambers together.

Rear the same process with the rear master cylinder..

Issues that will follow now ,


The front end will dive , causing instability issues with suspension.

This will be a nightmare in wet , with the large potential of the front sweeping away under breaking , especially through bends.

You would probably need to alter all the settings on the front end suspension or respring to stronger / upgraded springs to cure this , but with the position of the engine and the centre of gravity / weight sharing axis of the bike , this would need some serious expertise to do.

unless you think you can handle the difference in the way the bike is to handle.

My advice would be to try and repair the good system that is already there.

just my thoughts thou.

regards

tony
Sorry but I have to disagree with most of the dire predictions in this one. I can speak from personal experience, having converted my 1999 VFR800 from linked to conventional brakes. There was no need to make any suspension changes and the bike handles just the same as it always does. All brake systems cause weight transfer to the front, the linked system is very similar to an unlinked system in that regard, so the springing and damping need no changes. The front end is no more prone to "sweeping away" under braking, or were you confusing ABS and LBS?

Having said all that, I really liked the LBS system on my VFR, and moving back to conventional was more a result of changing the front suspension and upgrading the calipers.

The critical part of the delinking process is making sure the master cylinder matches the calipers it is connected to in terms of area ratios. In general the MC size in the LBS is small as each is only operating a fraction of the pistons. If all pistons are connected to each MC, then the MC diameter needs to be increased to prevent the brake becoming too grabby.
 
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While I am only one person, I dare to say that I have probably bled more brake systems and or replaced more SMC units on ST1300's in a year, than the average or normal dealership will do in many years.
While I have seen ALOT of defective secondary master cylinder units, rusted guide pins, bent clips, and wrong parts being used, I will also dare to say that none of these issues were caused by Honda's complicated LBS or ABS system.
Most, if not all, were caused by Neglect, lack of service, or incorrect service. While I have seen many of these bikes that were in desperate need of repair/service, I have seen many more that were very high mileage, in the 175000 to 250000 mile range working perfectly because their owners followed the service recommendations and intervals and flushed and bled their brake systems as directed, if not sooner (depending on climate and weather).
It may surprise some, but most of the bikes that have/had brake issues, were low mileage, garage queens, that were washed and waxed and looked very nice, but sat a very long time in a cold or damp place, and the owners failed to keep up on the service.
My suggestion would be purchase a MP Brake bleeding tool, throw it in your tool kit, learn the system, bleed it yearly, and ride your bike until you wear it out! Which could be way longer than you think possible.
Igofar
 

technotony007

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While I am only one person, I dare to say that I have probably bled more brake systems and or replaced more SMC units on ST1300's in a year, than the average or normal dealership will do in many years.
While I have seen ALOT of defective secondary master cylinder units, rusted guide pins, bent clips, and wrong parts being used, I will also dare to say that none of these issues were caused by Honda's complicated LBS or ABS system.
Most, if not all, were caused by Neglect, lack of service, or incorrect service. While I have seen many of these bikes that were in desperate need of repair/service, I have seen many more that were very high mileage, in the 175000 to 250000 mile range working perfectly because their owners followed the service recommendations and intervals and flushed and bled their brake systems as directed, if not sooner (depending on climate and weather).
It may surprise some, but most of the bikes that have/had brake issues, were low mileage, garage queens, that were washed and waxed and looked very nice, but sat a very long time in a cold or damp place, and the owners failed to keep up on the service.
My suggestion would be purchase a MP Brake bleeding tool, throw it in your tool kit, learn the system, bleed it yearly, and ride your bike until you wear it out! Which could be way longer than you think possible.
Igofar

Well said fella !!! :cool:
 

ST Gui

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As I understand it Honda's ST service manual details the brake bleeding procedure and if followed exactly will keep the performance tip top. Involved yes. But doable.

I've been one of many lured into the web that is Larry's OCD Garage. He's painstakingly showed me a step by step process to bleed the LBS thoroughly while pointing out maintenance hints and kinks to keep said system functioning flawlessly. He also showed how to streamline the process somewhat. I in turn dutifully nodded knowingly. That is knowing that I'd just bring my ST to him when needed service! LOL

But properly maintaining the LBS is really doable. I don't think it's worth the effort to unlink them— at least because of maintenance. Maybe someone with superior braking skills can eek more performance out of two independent systems but I'll stick with the LBS.

Finally unlinking the brakes may be a way to go if so determined but no clamping the hoses. If done all calipers and pistons should function 100% and both safely and reliably.
 

dduelin

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Along the lines of thought in the OP, the best idea I remember seeing here to temporarily disable the linked brakes in a sort of limp mode was a hard rubber or wooden wedge that was sized to fit along the back side of the left fork slider between the slider and the LH caliper bracket. Hose clamped or zip tied in place the wedge prevented the caliper bracket from moving forward and applying the SMC. If stuck somewhere some distance from home this rig would allow riding home although I think I remember in the post (with pics) the wedge was offered as a permanent solution.

I think a properly functioning system properly maintained is the solution but this was an idea to get home that I think has merit.
 
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Guys, I'm really busy tonight and no time to read thru the posts. If you don't like the OEM setup of a bike sell it and get a bike that suits you.
All I can say if you start farting around with Honda engineering on a braking system, " WHAT KIND OF FLOWERS DO YOU LIKE"
Rant over!
 
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