Aluminum Valve Stem Maintenance

Igofar

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[The first 15 posts in this thread were moved from this one. --The Mods]

Angel GT's get my vote.
As far as the "you don't need to replace your aluminum valve stems unless they're damaged", I will have to respectfully disagree with that comment.
Most, if not all, of the aftermarket alloy valve stems use a small rubber o-ring to seal everything together. Rubber valve stems are a lot more forgiving, allowing you to go one or two changes without changing the stems.
Most GOOD motorcycle shops will not mount a tire without replacing the old one (BMW shops cut the old ones off with a pair of cutters).
I would not trust a little o-ring from a product of unknown mgfr. unless you were to replace the o-ring each time you change the tires.
 

Kevin_56

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Most GOOD motorcycle shops will not mount a tire without replacing the old one (BMW shops cut the old ones off with a pair of cutters).
I would not trust a little o-ring from a product of unknown mgfr. unless you were to replace the o-ring each time you change the tires.
Add in car shops and I have never had one not replace car rim valve stem, even with a road hazard replacement 6 months after getting a new stem with first tire. Of course I had to pay for the new stem, figure that.

A poll would be interesting on your take on replacing the o-ring every time. This is the first that I recall of anyone suggesting this. Is it a bad thing - NO. Is it needed, that is up to the owner, but you know my answer, well it is a no.

You go and get a replacement, how old is it?? We could go on forever on this.

So I respectfully disagree with the need to replace the sealing o-ring on aluminum angle stems.
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Life support equipment (think scuba) for technical diving, deep diving, or cave diving uses o-rings to attach all the hoses to the first stage of the regulator set up etc.
While a lot of folks feel "I don't need to replace the o-rings because its not leaking" or "I just did it last year and I only have a few dives on it" etc. But I would not allow a ERT diver whom I was going on a deep dive with to get in the water unless his equipment was serviced correctly and completely. Granted on your choice on tire valve stem o-rings, and whether to replace them or not may only cause you to sit on the side of the road with a flat tire, it could also cause you to loose air quickly, causing your tire to deflate under use.
Why would you NOT replace something that you know is a possible failure point, and is so simple and cheap to replace?
Yes, its all about choices, and while I respect your right to make your own choice, I would not recommend that anyone do that.
So we'll agree to disagree on this one. I don't like taking risks when you don't have too.
 

OhioDeere

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ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

I replace the $0.10 Orings each time I change a tire. Also put a new Schrader valve in for $0.50. It also has an Oring. For all the work to change a tire why wouldn't you spend an extra dollar while your there? I'm particular about maintenance so that's just me. Nothing ruins my day more than my equipment breaking down when I need it.
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

I replace the $0.10 Orings each time I change a tire. Also put a new Schrader valve in for $0.50. It also has an Oring. For all the work to change a tire why wouldn't you spend an extra dollar while your there? I'm particular about maintenance so that's just me. Nothing ruins my day more than my equipment breaking down when I need it.
:plus1:
We have a saying in the ocean "nobody can hear you scream at 200 FSW.
If you work on something, do it completely, and do it correctly. Repairs are always easier in the garage than on the side of the road, or on the Sea Floor }<)))>
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

I always keep spare valve stems and valves in my ST tool cart, and I always seem to need to use them on folks traveling through who never inspected or changed them while changing tires.
A couple weeks ago, a friend of mine, (also a forum member) was having a rear tire mounted on his rim before a trip. I asked the tire guy to inspect the valve stem, and sure enough it was cracked through on both sides. Tire guy said it was good thing I suggested that, as he normally does not inspect them unless asked to do so.
I have a handful or so of damaged/failed o-rings that came off valve stems when tire changes were done. I should count them and start the stats :rolleyes:
 
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ST Gui

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Tire guy said it was good thing I suggested that, as he normally does not inspect them unless asked to do so.
Sounds like time for a new tire guy.
 

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Larry and I are going to have to disagree on this one. I'm going to make this my one comment on this subject to keep the thread hijack down to a minimum. If there's interest in discussing it further, I'll pull the valve-stem posts out into a separate thread.

But I would not allow a ERT diver whom I was going on a deep dive with to get in the water unless his equipment was serviced correctly and completely.
If you'd care to point me in the direction of what an aluminum valve stem manufacturer recommends as correct and complete service, I'll be more than happy to start following those directions. My stems came with an instruction sheet that didn't recommend any regular maintenance.

The stems I'm talking about here are the ones made by Bridgeport. They're aluminum, have an 83-degree angle, have a B stamped in a circle on the housing, are re-sold by Ariete and others and used as OEM parts by at least one European motorcycle manufacturer. There are knockoffs and other types that get most of their support from a rubber grommet that mounts in the hole in the wheel. The latter are worse than rubber stems. Not talking about either of those. If the Bridgeports had a high rate of failure (or any significant rate of failure for that matter), they wouldn't be on my bike and I wouldn't be recommending them to others.

Since the topic is avoiding failure, let's look at where Bridgeport's design could go wrong from an engineering standpoint:

The primary egress for air is through the valve, which doesn't have centrifugal force trying to open it while the wheel is spinning because it's not installed radially. The valve seal is backed up by the rubber lining in the top of cap. The lining is backed up by the threads that mate the cap to the housing. If the valve fails, you're going to know it next time you remove the cap for a pressure check. If the valve and the lining in the cap fail, the worst case is a very slow leak at the threads. That's the very worst case because the air in the tire will be exerting outward pressure on the cap, forcing the threads more tightly together. It would take a complete failure of all three to have a rapidly-deflating tire. If anything in that part of the stem is likely to fail and should be replaced regularly, it's the one part that gets removed and replaced regularly: the cap.

The other way for air to get out is through the joint between the valve and the wheel. The first line of defense is the nut on the inside of the wheel. Torqued properly, that's not going anywhere, and whatever could get past it would amount to a slow leak. There's also a tiny gap between the housing and the hole in the wheel. Again, slow leak at worst. That's backed up by the O ring in question which, in addition to the pull from the nut on the inside of the wheel, is pressed into place by centrifugal force when the wheel is spinning. The side of the ring that has to fend off air leaks isn't exposed to the elements at all and the other side, which is, isn't exposed very much at all. That leaves an awful lot of material to disappear before the seal would be compromised. Unless the ring completely disintegrates and disappears, we're still in slow leak territory, and that's at worst.

Having said all that, if you've got Bridgeport stems that failed after proper installation, I'd really like to see them and hear your opinion of the cause.

Why would you NOT replace something that you know is a possible failure point, and is so simple and cheap to replace?
Because if it ain't broke, doesn't have a track record of breaking and hasn't been declared a wear item by someone who spent a few hours slaving over a hot drawing board to make that recommendation, it gets left alone. I installed these stems in part because they lack the vulnerabilities that make rubber stems need regular replacement and can't find a good reason to disturb a joint with a known-good seal on it, especially if there's the risk of making a mistake selecting or installing the replacement.

The condition of the failure point you're concerned about is easily checked any time you want with the tire on the bike and under full pressure by giving it a squirt of soapy water.

--Mark
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Ok so we'll agree your not going to be on the dive team :rofl1:
While I'm sure there are some good quality valves available (Bridgeport) There are many more knock off units made in china.
Do most people know the difference, or do they simply order them on line and install them? I've not had any Bridgeport units come through the garage so I can't comment on them (but will take your word on their quality), however, that being said, RUBBER, whether it be an o-ring inside the cap, valve stem, or grommet, ages, dries out, cracks, and goes bad over time!
Just because your product didn't come with specific instructions on how to care for it (do you really think any of the cheap knock off ones have any instructions) you think its ok to ignore it?
Perhaps you should read this: http://www.tirereview.com/selling-safety-tpms-valve-stems-and-service-more-than-just-good-business/
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Thanks for all the responses and advice... Right now I'm leaning towards the Angel GT or the PR4... As for the stems, I can get the rubber ring replacements for about 4$ a piece... I'm still up in the air on that one, (pun intended) and will ask the guy that mounts my tires his opinion...
While you may have a good tire mounting guy, I would still trust the folks who make them (Schrader-Bridgeport International).
 

dduelin

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Upselling a TPMS and valve stem service every time a tire is mounted makes sense for sales and repair businesses selling car and light truck tires that last 30,000 to 60,000 miles but it's a bit of a stretch to try and use that recommendation to support changing the sealing gasket under aluminum billet stems every time a 6,000 to 10,000 tire is changed. If a shop told me that I'd refuse the service. It's just a way to reach in the customer's pocket. Even when I used rubber stems I wouldn't let them replace the stem every tire. That's for the average motorcycle owner racking up 3000 miles a year changing a rear tire every three years and gosh knows when for a front. Sometimes I'm changing tires three times a year. There's no UV or ozone damage in 3 or 4 months. Car tires can last 3 or 4 years and there is a real risk of UV and ozone damage.
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Larry and I are going to have to disagree on this one. I'm going to make this my one comment on this subject to keep the thread hijack down to a minimum. If there's interest in discussing it further, I'll pull the valve-stem posts out into a separate thread.



If you'd care to point me in the direction of what an aluminum valve stem manufacturer recommends as correct and complete service, I'll be more than happy to start following those directions. My stems came with an instruction sheet that didn't recommend any regular maintenance.

The stems I'm talking about here are the ones made by Bridgeport. They're aluminum, have an 83-degree angle, have a B stamped in a circle on the housing, are re-sold by Ariete and others and used as OEM parts by at least one European motorcycle manufacturer. There are knockoffs and other types that get most of their support from a rubber grommet that mounts in the hole in the wheel. The latter are worse than rubber stems. Not talking about either of those. If the Bridgeports had a high rate of failure (or any significant rate of failure for that matter), they wouldn't be on my bike and I wouldn't be recommending them to others.

Since the topic is avoiding failure, let's look at where Bridgeport's design could go wrong from an engineering standpoint:

The primary egress for air is through the valve, which doesn't have centrifugal force trying to open it while the wheel is spinning because it's not installed radially. The valve seal is backed up by the rubber lining in the top of cap. The lining is backed up by the threads that mate the cap to the housing. If the valve fails, you're going to know it next time you remove the cap for a pressure check. If the valve and the lining in the cap fail, the worst case is a very slow leak at the threads. That's the very worst case because the air in the tire will be exerting outward pressure on the cap, forcing the threads more tightly together. It would take a complete failure of all three to have a rapidly-deflating tire. If anything in that part of the stem is likely to fail and should be replaced regularly, it's the one part that gets removed and replaced regularly: the cap.

The other way for air to get out is through the joint between the valve and the wheel. The first line of defense is the nut on the inside of the wheel. Torqued properly, that's not going anywhere, and whatever could get past it would amount to a slow leak. There's also a tiny gap between the housing and the hole in the wheel. Again, slow leak at worst. That's backed up by the O ring in question which, in addition to the pull from the nut on the inside of the wheel, is pressed into place by centrifugal force when the wheel is spinning. The side of the ring that has to fend off air leaks isn't exposed to the elements at all and the other side, which is, isn't exposed very much at all. That leaves an awful lot of material to disappear before the seal would be compromised. Unless the ring completely disintegrates and disappears, we're still in slow leak territory, and that's at worst.

Having said all that, if you've got Bridgeport stems that failed after proper installation, I'd really like to see them and hear your opinion of the cause.



Because if it ain't broke, doesn't have a track record of breaking and hasn't been declared a wear item by someone who spent a few hours slaving over a hot drawing board to make that recommendation, it gets left alone. I installed these stems in part because they lack the vulnerabilities that make rubber stems need regular replacement and can't find a good reason to disturb a joint with a known-good seal on it, especially if there's the risk of making a mistake selecting or installing the replacement.

The condition of the failure point you're concerned about is easily checked any time you want with the tire on the bike and under full pressure by giving it a squirt of soapy water.

--Mark
If you'd care to point me in the direction of what an aluminum valve stem manufacturer recommends as correct and complete service, I'll be more than happy to start following those directions.
See link attached :rolleyes:
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

I guess I just am foolish with my spending...I replace MY stems at each tire change just so I won't have to deal with a possible tire issue while on the road.
But then I guess I also foolishly spend $50-$100 dollars a month, out of pocket, to make sure I stock o-rings, valve stems, wheel weights, grommets, secondary master cylinder units, Thermostats, brake pads, clutch bushings, grips, wheel bearings, flange bearings, fork seals, spark plugs, oil, coolant, grease and brake fluid, and all kinds of clips and fasteners "just in case" someone who may be traveling through will need one.
Because I always seem to have that one part, that someone didn't feel they needed to replace or service, when they come limping in the garage on a weekend, holiday, or 11:00 P.M. in need of help.
That's just how I roll.
 

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Back the truck up, Larry. Please don't think for a minute that I or anybody else is calling everything you do for this community into question, because that's certainly not the case.

Parts fail, sometimes inside of the recommended replacement interval and through no fault of the rider. As a group, we've got 15 years and millions of miles of real-world experience with this bike that's given us a good idea where Honda got it right and where the trouble spots are.

I think the way to answer the question about maintaining Bridgeport's aluminum valve stems is to write and ask what they recommend. I've just done that and will post whatever reply I get.

--Mark
 
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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Add in car shops and I have never had one not replace car rim valve stem, even with a road hazard replacement 6 months after getting a new stem with first tire. Of course I had to pay for the new stem, figure that.
I discovered quite some time ago that when I take the Expedition to my local Discount Tires for tire rotation/balance they replace the valve caps! After they replaced my chrome valve caps with rubber ones the first time, I always try to remember to do that myself before I take it in for rotation and balance so I can avoid going to the auto parts store to buy a new set.

I also hate it when they replace short valve stems with long ones when I get the tires changed.
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Re: ST 1300 Tire Recomendations...

Mark, I didn't think that for a minute, perhaps it was the full moon last night and I just typed too much (as always).
Sometimes I just don't get how some folks will not do service stuff until something breaks, leaks, or stops working.
Going to the extreme side of things, I've seen folks who think as long as their bike slowly rolls to a stop after squeezing their brake lever really hard, that their brakes are fine, and don't need to be bled, or they still see oil in the window, so they have not lost any, so they don't need to do an oil change etc. Just because somethings starts, runs, stops, it does not mean you should over look replacing stuff that could/may be a problem if left ignored for too long.
Tire stems and valves are such a small item in the big picture of things, I can't believe we are still talking about them, however, rubber is rubber, and it dries out, cracks, and fails over time, or when exposed to heat or cold etc.
All I was trying to get across, is that it is a very simple thing to change while your swapping tires, and may prevent trouble down the road.
Not to change them just because they are not leaking, or fear of having someone reach in your pockets and charge you for something you don't need is silly.
These silly little rubber bits are of very little risk of causing an accident, however, I can't tell you how many times a small rubber o-ring (that was fine and not leaking before the dive) turned into a rescue at 200 feet on a deep technical dive, just because somebody didn't follow the correct procedure and service his equipment correctly just because "I didn't need to waste money because it was not leaking" mentality.
Sorry folks, full moon, my OCD got the best of me last night.
If you want to replace your stems do so, If you don't want to, that's OK, maybe some other OCD nut like me will happen across you and help.
 

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I had to replace the rear Bridgeport 90 degree stem on my rear tire at my last tire change. It had been on there a long time and leaking for a while. I need to rebuild the leaky one and change the old one on the front at the next change.
 
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Igofar

Igofar

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Thanks for posting the picture Don. That is a very good point, and one of the failure points. The cores/valves as well as and or all rubber bits should be inspected/replaced/repaired as needed as part of normal service.
You also want to be careful when using brass vs plated cores as sometimes the types of metal will cause corrosion when mixed.
 
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