2009 ST1300 Sticky Rear Brake

Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
8
Location
O'Fallon, MO.
Bike
2009 ST1300
July 16, 2017

Last week I drove my 2009 ST1300 about 20 miles and by the time I got back home the rear brake was sticking so bad that it could not be moved when sitting on it while in neutral. The 20 mile distance was about ½ highway, the balance on residential streets.

The bike now has 24,555 miles, and I bought it from the original owner when it had 7,500 miles on it. All services have been done at the correct intervals (up until the 24k service) by Honda dealerships. I've done some of the 24k service myself, and was getting ready to bleed and replace the brake fluid in the brake & clutch lines when the back brake issue occurred. FYI, this bike does not have ABS brakes.

On February 23[SUP]rd[/SUP] I had a new rear tire installed at a Honda dealer, and they said my rear brake pads needed to be replaced. I had them change the brake pads, and the mileage at that time was 22,490 (i.e., the sticking rear brake happened about 5 months and 2k miles after the shop installed the new brake pads).

Other than doing occasional bursts of 90 on the highway, I do not ride this bike hard. My questions:
· Is this something the shop didn't do correctly when they changed the brake pads
· Should I change the fluids and see if that corrects the problem
· With the heat generated by the sticking rear pads, should a brake rebuild be done (could the heat have deteriorated the rubber seals)
· Should I take a hard look at the dreaded SCM valve

Frankly, I'm surprised that this issue has occurred at 24k miles. This mileage really doesn't seem to be excessive, especially for the ST1300. Anyway, if anyone has thoughts on this they wish to share, I would appreciate it.

Gary L. Sager
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
7,062
Location
Arizona
Bike
2007 Honda ST1300A
I thought I heard the white courtesy phone ringing :rofl1:
In answer to your four questions:
1. Maybe
2. More than likely
3. Not sure
4. Perhaps
Now with my dry sense of humor out of the way...Since this is only your second post (first one was probably the introduction), I probably sound like an idiot with my response, however, I think I can safely say that I know just a little bit about the brake system (as well as several other members here) and will make myself available to you if you would like to PM me a contact phone number so I can call you on the white courtesy :call: and discuss your brake issues.
The real answers to your four questions would be:
1. More than likely, since most shops don't work on this model enough to know some of the little gotcha's on brake bleeding or brake service.
2. Yes, absolutely, you should flush and bleed the entire system correctly to make sure you find the source of your issues.
3. I will have to discuss this one on the phone and ask you some more questions before I make a guess.
4. Some SMC (secondary master cylinder) units have gone bad with as little as 15,000 miles on them, or as much as 50,000 miles on them, it all depends on how often it was serviced/flushed, and what kind of environment the bike was stored/ridden in etc.

Send me your number, and I'll see if I can help.
To make you feel more comfortable talking to a total stranger about your brakes, use the search box and look at some of my Igofar Reviews from other members.
Looking forward to helping you if I can.
Igofar
 
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OP
OP
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
8
Location
O'Fallon, MO.
Bike
2009 ST1300
Hi Trump -

The only non-routine maintenance by the original owner was changing the battery. I too changed the battery last year. Other than tires, those are the only non-routine maintenance items up until the rear brake pads that I listed on the initial thread.

I received an email from IGoFar this morning and am waiting for his call. I have read many good things about him on this forum and look forward to speaking with him. I'll post more as new info becomes available, and thank you for your interest in this.

BTW, congratulations on your election.

Gary L. Sager
 
Joined
May 29, 2015
Messages
24
Location
Wisconsin
Bike
2006 ST1300A
Take a look at the linked brake system and if the front brake caliper plunger that activates that read caliper pistons is not returning/releasing after using the front brake. I had a similar issue and luckily my mechanic LOVES ST1300s and had heard about this issue. The problem was resolved with the replacement of the front caliper...And the bleeding of the brakes is quite complicated and time consuming.

Good luck and Ride Safe.

CW
 

ST Gui

240Robert
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And the bleeding of the brakes is quite complicated and time consuming.
For a neophyte- yes. But once you've seen it done a couple of times or been walked through it correctly it's not very bad at all. Yes a little time consuming but I believe it can be done correctly more quickly than described by the manual.


I have read many good things about him on this forum and look forward to speaking with him.
Take notes. He bled the brakes on my STs one fresh from the dealer. The first one had more bubbles in than an episode of Sea Hunt. Needless to say the brakes were amazing and warranted his warning to go easy and get used to them. The second had brakes that felt perfectly solid but he still got bubbles out and improved them as well. Basically the dealership did crap job and fair job of prepping a brand new bike. I learned my lesson and took the second bike from the showroom to Igofar straightaway.

The ST's Linked Brake System is involved and initially intimidating to be sure. (I still won't [-]DIY[/-] DIM but that's me. Once you've learned the routine properly you'll be golden. Not to mention there's the phone.
 

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
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Once you fix the problem with Igofar's help maintaining the brakes on a ST1300 isn't rocket science. No secrets lurk within, no black arts revealed to a select few. It's just regular inspections and conscientious regular maintenance done on time or at recommended mileage. Numerous resources are available here and elsewhere specific to peculiarities of this job on the ST.
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
7,062
Location
Arizona
Bike
2007 Honda ST1300A
I guess I should be quiet too, as I still have a set of steel double scuba tanks with a back pack harness like he used in Sea Hunt :rofl1:
At least I gave away my double hose regulator and horse collar flotation device.
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
7,062
Location
Arizona
Bike
2007 Honda ST1300A
If you notice the fish, you'll see I just finished bleeding it :rofl1:
Hope your doing well John.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Messages
7
Location
Nashville, TN
My 2007 did it twice, what I found is that the valve piston on the front left side that has a rubber boot seal on top of it in the up position, my 2000 Honda Blackbird has the same linked brake system but the piston valve is turned upside down with rubber boot facing downward, this keeps water from seeping into it it has never had an issue with over 50k miles on it.
The ST valve lets water seep through the boot and rust and corrode the piston take it apart an clean and reassemble I pull boot back about once every 3 to 4 months and spray with WD40 or a little thin oil this keeps it from corrosion have not had that issue since.
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
7,062
Location
Arizona
Bike
2007 Honda ST1300A
Pulling the rubber boot back risks damage from tearing it, and damaging the base of it where it seals in the housing.
The FSM instructs you to put some silicone grease on the surface where the plunger pushes against the piston (only during assembly of a new part).
Applying any Oil or solvent (WD40) risks contamination of the brake fluid when it seeps past the seal. I would strongly suggest that you stop doing that.
 
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OP
OP
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
8
Location
O'Fallon, MO.
Bike
2009 ST1300
August 11, 2017
I finished with the 50-70 mile break-in with the repairs and the rear wheel still doesn't spin 1½ turns as IGoFar says it should while in neutral on the center stand. So, more work to be done.

August 8, 2017
I finished working on my 2009 ST1300 by placing the seat and bags on it and rolled it out of the garage. Now all I have to do is put the o-ring on the rear brake pad hanger pin when it comes in and I'll be able to ride it again (dealers don't stock this part, it is special order…). Apparently all the heat from the sticking rear brakes cooked it off the pin. IGoFar made sure I understood this was to be placed on the pin prior to me riding this, as it could possibly cause the pads to bind.
By August 11, I had changed:
· The front brakes
· The SMC
· All brake fluid
· Clutch fluid

On July 16[SUP]th[/SUP] I posted a thread about my sticky rear brake and the next day IGoFar responded with a request for my contact #. Over the period of several weeks, I spoke with IGoFar on 6 different days for more than 9 hours on the phone. The first day he had me do a few things so that he could determine what the likely problem was, then he told me what items to order and where to order them from. The problem was the secondary master cylinder on the left front brake.

Throughout the repair, there were many, many things he brought up that helped me understand what, how, and why to do it, as well as always what tools to have on hand. This was an issue several times, and several trips to the store to get the tools were necessary. This of course was my issue, but the voice on the other end of the line was never anything but patient. He often encouraged and complimented me, as well as pointing out that not only was I saving a lot of money, I could now be sure the job had been done properly. Numerous times he sent photos to make sure I understood the discussion, and also I sent photos to him to confirm I did a procedure properly.

He recommended that since I was working on the floor of the garage without the bike on a lift I get some type of pads to lay on. I happened to have some (~ 2' square ¾ thick pads form Harbor Freight) and they made a big difference (I am no longer 17 years old…).

Once we completed the smc and front brake pad change as well as the brake fluid change, he recommended the clutch fluid be changed. This of course I did, and it was relatively simple as I had now done the brake bleeding. A final step was to hold the front brake lever closed and depress the rear brake pedal overnight. I did this by using a zip tie on the front brake and hanging a full gallon can of paint by its wire handle on the rear brake lever. In the morning when the pressure is released form these levers, both should feel firm when squeezed/depressed.

Frankly, a big part of my hesitation to work on this bike is I never had a bike with so much plastic on it. IGoFar took care of my issue with that. BTW, it's my understanding that you can't get to the proportional valve to bleed it without taking the right middle cowl off. With his direction, we got the job done without removing the cowling. The parts that were taken off the bike were the saddlebags, seat, rear fender (part a) and right side cover.

Anyway, I just wanted to bring the crew up to speed with my sticky-rear-brake,as well as publicly thanking IGoFar for all of his help, patience, and insights. He is certainly a forum treasure, and I suspect that this extreme generosity and kindness has been part of his character throughout his life.

The balance of this post is more of a list of tools and parts that be available and a few tips to make the job easier. Frankly, there is a LOT of DETAILED and EXCELLENT how-to info posted by IGoFar and JFHeath related to brakes.

Changing the fluid was done without a pneumatic brake fluid bleeder. Instead, a hydraulic brake bleeder (part number 08-0143) was purchased from the Dennis Kirk website (https://www.denniskirk.com/motion-pro/hydraulic-brake-bleeder-08-0143.p28732.prd/28732.sku). The part plus shipping cost total was $20.34. This part is about 2†long and ¾†in diameter. It operates as a “check valveâ€, i.e., fluid can only go one-way through it. I didn't use the 2 pieces of tubing that was supplied, and I didn't use the clamp, either. Instead, I went to the hardware store and got a length of 3/16†X 5/16†clear tubing about 6 feet long. Cut about a 6†length and connect it to the side that faces away from the arrow. Make the cuts square on both ends of the smaller piece of tubing, and make it square on the long length of tubing that will attach to the hydraulic bleeder. Connect the balance of the tubing to the other end of the hydraulic brake bleeder. A plastic quart milk bottle with a screw-on cap is a good choice for draining the brake fluid into as it is large enough to contain the fluid from both the brake and clutch procedures. I put about ¼ of a quart of water in it to give it stability when the clear plastic tubing is placed in it for the first brake bleeding.


You can use a pliers or similar tool to put the tubing on hard-to-reach bleeder valves (such as the proportional valve).
½†drive long 14 mm socket for the rear brake
½†drive long 27 mm socket for rear axle
½†breaker bar ~ 2' long
½†torque wrench (don't use this as a breaker bar)
3/8†ratchet wrench
6†long 3/8†extension
3/8†drive metric hex bit (allen) socket set (e.g., those in this webpage)
3/8†metric long sockets
Metric box/open end wrenches
Metric allen wrenches
Medium sized flat blade screwdriver
Medium sized phillips screwdriver
Denatured alcohol to clean the reservoir and internal parts with
Cotton balls to clean the reservoir and internal parts with
Q-Tips to clean the reservoir and internal parts with
Child nasal aspirator (at Walgreens, Walmart, etc.) to suck the brake fluid out of the brake & clutch reservoirs
Some type of flat container to catch brake fluid when separating brake calipers from the brake lines (e.g., a cookie sheet)
Cotton shop towels to wrap around the brake fluid reservoirs (don't use paper towels)

Recommended but not necessarily needed
A telescoping magnet – (Harbor Freight has an 18†one for $4)
A telescoping mirror – (Harbor Freight has a 19†one for $4)
Magnetic pan for putting various parts from the bike in AND/OR
ST-Owner's Club member GitSum's excellent Tupperware Worksheet. Type the ST1300 - tupperware worksheet into the search bar on the website and it will take you to the correct list. If you haven't seen this yet, it is pretty slick. You can print the pages you need and it will help you keep track of various fasteners.
 
Joined
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Location
Arizona
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2007 Honda ST1300A
Before I call Gary back on the white courtesy :call: I just want to mention a couple things...
Gary did a FANTASTIC job of taking this job on himself, with limited space, tools, and knowledge of the brake system! He was VERY patient, never rushed anything, followed EVERY trouble shooting bit of advice I offered without question, and spent more time on the phone than Lily Tomlin on laugh in :rofl1:
That said, this saga may still be a work in progress, and we are not going to abandon Gary just quite yet.
Several things were found so far, which include non-factory brake pads, missing o-ring on the hanger pin, dirty guide pins, a lot of crap and sediment in the brake fluid, fasteners were found tightened in the wrong sequence, etc.
Gary was kind enough to ship me the old secondary master cylinder for inspection....what was found would SCARE THE BEJESUS out of anyone here :eek:4:
Not only was the piston frozen in the bore of the unit, it had more corrosion than I've ever seen in one before....and I've only changed about a hundred of them so far :rolleyes:
The top of the piston was completely ground down and missing sections around the rim! These bits caused a lot of damage in the bore.
I have sent the pictures to both Gary, and John Heath while discussing this issue, maybe one of them could post the pictures on here so other folks could see what Gary was up against?
So, at this point, I would consider the work so far a huge success, in that our friend was not hurt while trying to ride his bike with this damaged secondary master cylinder, AND the rear brakes are now RELEASING as they should, and pass the secondary master cylinder function test with flying colors...as far as the rear wheel turning a little less than 1 1/2 times with a single push? Well that could be up to how hard he is spinning the wheel, the non-factory rear pads that are still on the bike, some residual air still in the system, or perhaps some crap behind the pistons in the rear caliper.
We will now start trying to pin point the issues further now since the brakes are releasing. This could also be a flange bearing issue.
I didn't want to throw too much stuff at Gary until we corrected the serious stuff first.
Stay tuned folks....more to come....as it happens, when it happens.
Igofar
 
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jfheath

John Heath
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Many thanks for posting such detailed feedback, Gary. Much appreciated. Its good to be able to see the original fault, and then to see what needed doing in order to sort it out.

Larry sent me the pics that he took of your of your SMC as well - and I was horrified at the state that it was in ! I was particularly taken with the entirely new design of the new (R01 suffix) piston, with the separate primary seal. We had an exchange of emails about it and we wondered if this was the final fix for the SMC woes. We cannot be certain whether or not the same design fits the pre-2008 models though. The older style piston is from a 2004 model with 125K miles on it. It is shown alongside the new R01 style.

Anyway - his pics : I've loaded them in full size for the best impact. Warning. The first photo is not considered to be suitable for those of a nervous disposition.



I did warn you !!

Below:2009 style SMC piston removed from Gary's bike, having been left standing and unserviced for many years.







Two SMC bores - for comparison







2009 style piston alongside a 2004 piston








That's it, I think. The 2009 piston from Gary's bike can be seen to be well corroded. That isn't to say it was the design of the 2009 piston that is at fault. Far from it - the design seems to be a big improvement. But as I understand it, the bike had been left unattended for a long time at some stage in its life, and in spite of subsequent dealer servicing .......
 
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