Starting Issues

Trapperdog

R.I.P. - 2022/10/14
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Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
304
Location
Los altos Ca
Bike
09 ST1300 PA
2009 ST1300 Police
Cranks over like a champ but won't fire
Six weeks ago on a hot day after 200 miles the bike would turn over fine after stopping, but would not start. After fiddling with switches and gas cap it would fire right up after a few minutes over the course of the next 150 miles. Started fine when cold or on short trips the next few days but eventually refused to start. Checked for spark and found none as well as no fuel on the removed plugs. Fuel pump relay kicks in but hard to tell if there was audiable evedience of pump pressurization. Larry and I stripped the plastics and found the bolt loose and slight corrosion on the green ground wires to the frame under the seat, left side. The yellow 12 ground connector as well as the 24 multi connector looked good, we had power to the fuel pump and the bike started and ran well for two weeks.
After a five hour cool down 70 miles from home the bike again refused to start but still turned over well. Eventually getting it started, it cut out completely while in motion, but would restart while drifting to the side of the road and turning off the ignition (key) and back on. It did this 6-7 times until refusing to start 1/4 mile from home. Again we stripped the plastics and looked closer at the wiring to find the wires to the right knock and neutral sensor brittle, missing sheathing, and connectors partially broken. Replacing the subharnes we found the front oil pressure switch wire sheathing chewed by rodents all the way around exposing 1/2" wire on each. Checked and cleaned all the connectors on both sides as well as the cut off switch on the bars. The bike started and ran fine for a few hours of cone practice, but again refused to start after stopping for dinner, yet still turned over like a champ.
So....tomorrow I plan on removing the rear plastics to check the ECM pins as well as other rearward connectors. Will also check for fuel pump power as well as spark. Other than a chaffed main harness, the only other possibilities I can think that would allow strong cranking yet no firering are a failing ECM, bank over or crank position sensor. No other anomalies and no codes are being thrown that I know of. Accessories include a gps, on board volt meter, Clearwater lights, police lights front and rear on isolated power and relays, heated gear harness, quarterlet harness triggering the Clearwater relay and powering the volt meter and gps. Apologies for the lengthy post.
Open to any and all suggestions and responses. Thanks, Roger
 
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
588
Location
Virginia
Bike
2004 Honda ST1300ABS
STOC #
8954
Fuel pump pressure test ... ? they do act up when warm/hot
Emergency off switch ?
Emergency cut off switch would not allow the starter to work. Do you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds after you turn the key?

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Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
588
Location
Virginia
Bike
2004 Honda ST1300ABS
STOC #
8954
The bank angle sensor, emergency cut off switch, and side stand sensor all work the same way. If they are engaged it disables the starter switch.

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jfheath

John Heath
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Mar 18, 2006
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Ilkley, W Yorkshire, UK
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2013 ST1300 A9
2024 Miles
000679
STOC #
2570
Other things worth checking are the starter relay and its connection spades and wiring; the earthing points; the harness where it passes under the back end of the fuel tank and front of the seat (although this fault on earlier ST1300s was addressed).

The fault could be to do with any component with a bare live wire momentarily shorting to earth.

Give the HT leads a once over too. They are a push fit into the coil, once the gland 'nut' has been removed. They are a screw fit into the plug cap - about an inch of HT lead will screw into the cap. Resistance through the plug should be 5Kohm plus or minus a couple of hundredths. Check the Low Tension leads to each coil, and the earth contact to the frame can become corroded.
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

R.I.P. - 2022/10/14
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Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
304
Location
Los altos Ca
Bike
09 ST1300 PA
Anomalies noted this am:
No spark
Back probing the fuel pump connector G and Br/B has a constant voltage of 11.x V with no reduction in V as it should with pressurization. G and Br shows no voltage
No fuel pump wine, but I never really here it anyway ( hard of hearing)
No FI light with ignition and switch on as well as with cranking

? It the fuel pump is inoperative does the system shut of spark as well?

i thought the Bank Over sensor, like the Crank Position Sensor, allowed starter rotation but cut off fuel and spark, but could be mistaken
thanks for the input so far, I'll take sugggestions in account as I move through the diagnosis process
 
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Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
588
Location
Virginia
Bike
2004 Honda ST1300ABS
STOC #
8954
Anomalies noted this am:
No spark
Back probing the fuel pump connector G and Br/B has a constant voltage of 11.x V with no reduction in V as it should with pressurization. G and Br shows no voltage
No fuel pump wine, but I never really here it anyway ( hard of hearing)

? It the fuel pump is inoperative does the system shut of spark as well?

i thought the Bank Over sensor, like the Crank Position Sensor, allowed starter rotation but cut off fuel and spark, but could be mistaken
thanks for the input so far, I'll take sugggestions in account as I move through the diagnosis process
I tested all 3 systems on mine. . Put bike in 1st with sidestand down(starter button disabled, no crank). .Put bike in neutral, lifted side stand, Turned thd emergency cut off switch to "off", (same result). . . Reset switch, then leaned over the bike until it rested on it's engine guard, (same result). . . I did not check spark, so I cannot say either way on that one. My issue is no Fi light when I turn the key and fuel pump activation. .Also, when you turn your key you should hear 2 clicks, in different locations. . (Bank angle sensor, mounted in the upper cowl above the headlights, and the fuel cutoff relay, on the the left side behind the fuse box) still tracking down my issue. .

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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

R.I.P. - 2022/10/14
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Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
304
Location
Los altos Ca
Bike
09 ST1300 PA
Ive checked all the relays, connectors, fuses, wiring in the Tail section of bike and all is good. The manual states to check the fuel pump for power between the Br and Gr wires. I get no power there. I still get full power between the Br/Bl and Gr wires though. Jumpering between the battery and the Br/Bl and Gr fuel pump pigtail results in no pump movement. Jumpering from the battery to the Br an Gr pigtail wires and the pump wines. Not sure what that means though. Still no FI light
 
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
588
Location
Virginia
Bike
2004 Honda ST1300ABS
STOC #
8954
Sounds like a bad wire somewhere in the harness:( just my best guess

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Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
588
Location
Virginia
Bike
2004 Honda ST1300ABS
STOC #
8954
Sounds like a bad wire somewhere in the harness:( just my best guess

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I just talked to Larry on the phone today and it sounds like we are having the same issue overall. I'll be mirroring what you've already fixed so far and then be trailing you in your search for answers.. . . .

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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

R.I.P. - 2022/10/14
Rest In Peace
Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
304
Location
Los altos Ca
Bike
09 ST1300 PA
Well I've pulled the plastics off again and will begin re examining the wiring and connectors.
Any ideas on what else to look for that would cause the loss of spark and power to fuel pump?
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
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7,062
Location
Arizona
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2007 Honda ST1300A
I think your bike just likes being in my warm, well lit garage, instead of your barn :rofl1:
 

jfheath

John Heath
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Messages
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Location
Ilkley, W Yorkshire, UK
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2013 ST1300 A9
2024 Miles
000679
STOC #
2570
Well I've pulled the plastics off again and will begin re examining the wiring and connectors.
Any ideas on what else to look for that would cause the loss of spark and power to fuel pump?
I've been tracing through that superb coloured wiring diagram that Anna's Dad produced for the 2006 ABS model and the black and white diagram in my 2004 workshop manual. I am now going completely cross-eyed.

It seems that the Bank Angle Sensor Relay (which is triggered by the bank angle sensor) provides power for a number of devices, including the ignition coils, the fuel pump and the fuel injectors.

The power isn't provided directly in the case of the fuel pump - it goes via the Fuel shut-off relay.

It seems possible that somewhere, the power isn't getting through to the correct relays, or the relays aren't activating, or if activated, the relay isn't switching on the power to the next device. So a systematic test of power / cable start and end from the fuse box to the components might be in order. Don't forget to check the quality of the earth lead at each point.

To do that, you need to look at the circuit diagram, find where the lead is coming from and where it is going to (use the colour codes to help identify the correct wire) and test the resistance between the start and the end. It should be near zero. Or you can test the voltage at the start and the voltage at the end - it should be nearly the same (there will be a slight drop due to the resistance along the wire). You need the ignition on to test voltage. You don't need the ignition on to test the conductivity.


To address a comment made earlier - my understanding is that the bank angle sensor detects the angle of the bike when stationary. If it has fallen over, the bank angle sensor will detect it and will cut off the bank angle relay which in turn cuts off power to the fuel injectors, the coils and the fuel pump. The sensor has 3 wires going into it, an earth, and a power feed from the fuse box. The third goes to the bank angle sensor relay, which presumably is powered when the bike has not fallen over. I don't know how the sensor works precisely, but if you are getting power to the bank angle sensor relay trigger inputs, then the bank angle sensor itself isn't the problem.
 

jfheath

John Heath
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2570
I still get full power between the Br/Bl and Gr wires though. Jumpering between the battery and the Br/Bl and Gr fuel pump pigtail results in no pump movement. Jumpering from the battery to the Br an Gr pigtail wires and the pump wines. Not sure what that means though.
Just followed this comment through the diagram. The Brown/black wire is nowt to do with the fuel pump. It is the Reserve sensor - the other end of which is connected to the console ! Probably not a good idea to put 12v across that. The fuel pump is connected to the brown wire (+12v) and green (earth). If the pump whirrs into life when you apply batter power to Bn & Gn, then the pump is OK. The next point backwards is the fuel cut-off relay.
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

R.I.P. - 2022/10/14
Rest In Peace
Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
304
Location
Los altos Ca
Bike
09 ST1300 PA
Just followed this comment through the diagram. The Brown/black wire is nowt to do with the fuel pump. It is the Reserve sensor - the other end of which is connected to the console ! Probably not a good idea to put 12v across that. The fuel pump is connected to the brown wire (+12v) and green (earth). If the pump whirrs into life when you apply batter power to Bn & Gn, then the pump is OK. The next point backwards is the fuel cut-off relay.
yes, I did determine that the pump was good by jumping the B and G. I also switched relays with a known working relay to no avail. With the plastics off I'm thinking of disconnecting the ignition switch connector and jumping the 12+ connector tab to to the others to rule out the ignition switch. Then maybe the bank over sensor.
 
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Messages
833
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Schroon Lake, NY
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2010 ST-1300
I know some FJR's had problems with the ignition switches. I believe they had bad solder joints where the wires hooked?
 

Blrfl

Natural Rider Enhancement
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Fast Blue One
STOC #
4837
The bank angle sensor is just that; it doesn't know or care if the bike is moving, and you'd still want it to shut the engine off if you were.

--Mark
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

R.I.P. - 2022/10/14
Rest In Peace
Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
304
Location
Los altos Ca
Bike
09 ST1300 PA
I know some FJR's had problems with the ignition switches. I believe they had bad solder joints where the wires hooked?
I just bypassed the ignition switch by removing the connector and shorted the 12+ tab to the others in hopes of getting the FI light on but unfortunately the switch looks good
 
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