Starting Issues

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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

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The bank angle sensor is just that; it doesn't know or care if the bike is moving, and you'd still want it to shut the engine off if you were.

--Mark
I'd love to be able to shut the engine off, unfortunately she won't start and has no spark or fuel. If I pull the connector I believe I can test for voltage as well as short the connector tabs to bypass the sensor
 

jfheath

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Please excuse the lengthy reply with no diagrams. I have been working through the wiring diagrams getting a grip on what feeds what, and trying to understand the electrical logic behind the Bank Angle Sensor, to make the diagram make sense. But read the bottom bit first - a useful link that I came across. It sounds familiar !!

Anna's Dad's Excellent wiring schematic is linked from Post #1 here.

So this is a sequence starting with the Bank Angle Sensor and checking that power is getting to each point in turn and that leads are intact to that point. You could jump in part way through I suppose, and find a switch relay that is working and move from there. Writing it this way makes it easier to cover all bases.

So I have assumed that the ignition switch is working, that power is getting through the main start relay and that power is getting to the fuses in the fuse box.

Briefly, the bank angle sensor provides a trigger for the bank angle sensor relay. The bank angle sensor relay provides power for the coils and injectors and to fuel cutoff relay (via the Run/Stop switch). The fuel cut off relay activates the fuel pump.
I would guess that with no power to coils or to the pump, the fault has to be the leads, switches and relays up to and including the Bank Angle Senor Relay.


The Bank Angle Sensor has 3 wires.

Black / White - which provides 12v when ignition is on. This comes from the 10A Fuse D in the forward fuse box and is not affected by the Red Runs / Stop switch.
Green which is connected to the chasis earth.
Red / Orange is presumably a signal wire to the bank angle sensor relay and should produce 0-1 volt in the upright position when tested against the green wire (earth)

If the black / white lead gives the +12v reading and the red orange lead doesn't give 0-1v reading then the bank angle sensor must be suspect. The manual doesn't give a reading for when the bank angle sensor is tilted - it just says that the bank angle sensor relay should click. I suspect it would show an open circuit - but I do not know. I also suspect, but I haven't tried this, that the bank angle sensor is providing a return to earth for the relay to be activated. The 0-1v reading is due to the electronic circuitry in the sensor.


The Run / Stop switch
has a couple of wires of note.

A black / white lead which provides the same +12v battery voltage from fuse D that supplies the Bank Angle Sensor. Test it against a good earthing point. There is no earth lead in the switch assmebly.

A black lead which shows battery voltage (12v) when the switch is on, and takes the +12v to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay. Again, test it against a good earth, with the switch turned on. If power isn't getting to the black/white lead, then there is a problem with the lead or connectors from the fusebox. If power is getting through, but power doesn't appear at the black lead at the switch, then there is a problem with the switch - or the short lead from the switch to wherever you take the reading.
Note that internally, the switch that powers the black lead, also provides power to the engine starter switch.


The Bank Angle Sensor Relay has 4 wires.

Like all basic relays, it has two wires which control the position of the switch (on/off), and two wires which provide the power in and the power out.

Assuming the previous items tested out OK: The Red/ Orange lead is the one from the Bank Angle Sensor and should display the same 0-1 volt reading when tested against earth. If it doesn't then the red/orange lead, or its connectors at either end must be suspect. I think that this R/O lead is the return to 'earth' lead via the Bank Angle sensor.

The Black lead is the battery voltage +12v power that comes from the Run / Stop switch. Test against earth, not against the Red / Orange lead - the Bank Angle Sensor has electronics which may not respond if the probes are put on the wrong way round. (My supposition).

Another test: Hold the relay in your hand and turn on the ignition and set the Run/Stop switch to Run. You should feel the click as the relay activates.

The Black / Pink lead is the source of the battery voltage from the 20A Fuse 'L' in the rearward fuse box. It should read 12v (ish) when measured against a good earth point. If it doesn't, check out the fuse and test the cable from the fusebox to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay for continuity (ie zero resistance).

The black/white lead from the relay is the battery voltage out of the relay to the next point int he circuit. It should read +12v (ish) when measured against earth when the relay has been activated. (ie when ignition is turned on - if the bank angle sensor is upright AND the Run/Stop switch is set to 'Run'. Check the voltage against a good earth. This black/white lead provides the 12v battery voltage to various devices from this point, including various sensors, the fuel injectors and the ECM. It also provides the voltage for the next stage - the Fuel Cut-off relay.

The Fuel Cut-Off Relay

I have 2 circuit diagrams and the one in my 2004 Honda Workshop manual differs at this point from the superior colour version 'R' that Anna'sDad has produced. If you haven't got it, then download it - it is worth its weight in gold. I'm going with Anna's Dad's version - I trust it to be more accurate for the 2009 model ST1300ABS.

A spur of the Black/White lead that comes from the Bank Angle Sensor feeds into the Fuel cut-off relay, and is connected to both the trigger and the input voltage contacts. Check that the battery voltage is reaching this point - tested against a good earth. You could also check that the same lead is supplying a voltage to the ignition coils (and to the fuel injectors). There are other sensors too which can be gleaned from the circuit diagram.

The other trigger wire at the Fuel Cut-off relay goes to the ECM - presumably enabling / disabling the return of the trigger voltage to earth. That is the Brown/Black wire. I would be wary of putting an ohmeter on this - I don't know what the voltage that is put out by the meter might do to the electronics in the ECM.

The Brown wire is turned on only if the relay has been activated by all of the other switches / relays described above being 'switched on'. If power is reaching this point, then the next stop is the fuel pump.

The Fuel Pump.

Has 3 wires. A Green wire which is connected to earth. The Brown wire provides the +12v batter voltage from the Fuel cut-off relay. Test the earth wire for continuity with a good earthing point, or the negative batter terminal. (0 Ohms). Test the brown wire for battery voltage against a good earth (+12v ish). Any fault here must be related to wiring or connectors. The other lead is for the reserve tank sensor.

If everything tests out, then the fuel pump should whirr into life. If it doesn't, you have missed something.

Ignition coils.

Low tension voltage (battery voltage) comes from the black and white leads already mentioned. The Blue/Yellow and Yellow/Blue leads (check the colours on the coils 2P connectors) feed straight to the ECM. All you can do is test for continuity (ohmeter) between the multi-pin connector and the coil.

Fuel Injectors.

Ditto the above. Check the colours of the wires feeding each injector (other than the black/white 12v lead) and find the same colours at the multiway connector that plugs into the ECM and check for continuity.

Finally - while checking things out for you I came across this on the forum:

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?97758-ST1300-Brains-required-for-non-starter/page3

It sounds like a very similar problem - and the fault turned out to be a corroded wire which feeds the fuse box - allowing a reading of 12v, but not allowing sufficient current to power anything ! I would guess that someone at some time had put one of those quick wire connectors onto the 12v feed. They slice through the outer protection and the blade contacts the inner core - leaving them open to the elements.
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

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Please excuse the lengthy reply with no diagrams. I have been working through the wiring diagrams getting a grip on what feeds what, and trying to understand the electrical logic behind the Bank Angle Sensor, to make the diagram make sense. But read the bottom bit first - a useful link that I came across. It sounds familiar !!
.
Thank you sir, just the kind of info I was looking for!
I did see your last link and have checked the wires leading into the fuse boxes and all looked good. Although I've exchanged relays with a known working relay, I suspect I need to check for voltage at the relays to to help eliminate the bank sensor as well as reviewing the ignition system. I'll review your info more in depth as time allows.
I suspect either something has shut down both the fuel and spark circuits or if one circuit isn't functioning the other is automically shut down by the ECM?
thank you for detailed info!
 

Igofar

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John, once again, you are awesome! :bow1::bow1::bow1:
 

ST Gui

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jfheath said:
someone at some time had put one of those quick wire connectors onto the 12v feed.
This is a very common problem in my experience with 3M Scotch connectors— the red (and sometimes blue) little clamshells that have the guillotine built-in:



...both the definition and epitome of 'quick and dirty'.

I suppose a glob of some sealer or dielectric grease could help.
 
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Please excuse the lengthy reply with no diagrams.
Here John, let me provide the diagram.

This diagram is a distilled version of my larger '06 Honda ST1300 Wiring Schematic. I've tried to present only the components that make up the Bank Angle Sensor circuit, with just the bare minimum of conductors.

Briefly, the bank angle sensor provides a trigger for the bank angle sensor relay. The bank angle sensor relay provides power for the coils and injectors and to fuel cutoff relay (via the Run/Stop switch). The fuel cut off relay activates the fuel pump.
I would guess that with no power to coils or to the pump, the fault has to be the leads, switches and relays up to and including the Bank Angle Sensor Relay.
I think with the above diagram and John's dialogue, trouble shooting the Bank Angle Sensor Circuit should be much simplified.

Also I think if this issue were occurring with my ST1300, I would install a 12v test lamp between the Black/White conductor located in the Red Service Connector and Chassis Ground. If the Bank Angle Sensor Circuit is operating correctly, I would expect the test lamp to illuminate whenever the Ignition is in the ON position, and the motorcycle is upright.
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

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Here John, let me provide the diagram.

This diagram is a distilled version of my larger '06 Honda ST1300 Wiring Schematic. I've tried to present only the components that make up the Bank Angle Sensor circuit, with just the bare minimum of conductors.

I think with the above diagram and John's dialogue, trouble shooting the Bank Angle Sensor Circuit should be much simplified.

Also I think if this issue were occurring with my ST1300, I would install a 12v test lamp between the Black/White conductor located in the Red Service Connector and Chassis Ground. If the Bank Angle Sensor Circuit is operating correctly, I would expect the test lamp to illuminate whenever the Ignition is in the ON position, and the motorcycle is upright.
Great, thank you. I assume the service connector is the same as the data link connector?
Also, I'm having trouble accessing the blue Bank angle sensor connector under the front fairing. I can see the multi sheath from the top and bottom (with side plastics and the plastic under the windscreen off) but am wondering if I need to remove the front plastic to access the sheath.
 
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I assume the service connector is the same as the data link connector?
I don't recognize the term "data link", I took the term "Service Connector" from the Honda wiring schematic.

The connector is located beneath the seat, often taped to the large wire harness running along the RH frame tube, towards the rear of the bike.

Here is a photo of the area, with the Red Service Connector peeking out in the upper RH corner of the photo.

Wire Harness.jpg
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

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I don't recognize the term "data link", I took the term "Service Connector" from the Honda wiring schematic.

The connector is located beneath the seat, often taped to the large wire harness running along the RH frame tube, towards the rear of the bike.

Here is a photo of the area, with the Red Service Connector peeking out in the upper RH corner of the photo.

Wire Harness.jpg
Ah yes, one in the same. My '09 service manual refers to it as a data link. I have tried jumping it per the manual to see if the FI lamp would illuminate and give codes, but had no luck. Thanks
 
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Trapperdog

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I don't recognize the term "data link", I took the term "Service Connector" from the Honda wiring schematic.

The connector is located beneath the seat, often taped to the large wire harness running along the RH frame tube, towards the rear of the bike.

Here is a photo of the area, with the Red Service Connector peeking out in the upper RH corner of the photo.

Wire Harness.jpg
the test lamp would not illuminate between the Black/white and ground. The Volt meter initially showed .443V though. Oddly enough the voltage would rise .001V every half second or so during the test? Not sure what all that means though.
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

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Please excuse the lengthy reply with no diagrams. I have been working through the wiring diagrams getting a grip on what feeds what, and trying to understand the electrical logic behind the Bank Angle Sensor, to make the diagram make sense. But read the bottom bit first - a useful link that I came across. It sounds familiar !!

The Bank Angle Sensor has 3 wires.

Black / White - which provides 12v when ignition is on. This comes from the 10A Fuse D in the forward fuse box and is not affected by the Red Runs / Stop switch.
Green which is connected to the chasis earth.
Red / Orange is presumably a signal wire to the bank angle sensor relay and should produce 0-1 volt in the upright position when tested against the green wire (earth)

If the black / white lead gives the +12v reading and the red orange lead doesn't give 0-1v reading then the bank angle sensor must be suspect. The manual doesn't give a reading for when the bank angle sensor is tilted - it just says that the bank angle sensor relay should click. I suspect it would show an open circuit - but I do not know. I also suspect, but I haven't tried this, that the bank angle sensor is providing a return to earth for the relay to be activated. The 0-1v reading is due to the electronic circuitry in the sensor.

I have not been able to access the BAS or connector as of yet


The Run / Stop switch
has a couple of wires of note.

A black / white lead which provides the same +12v battery voltage from fuse D that supplies the Bank Angle Sensor. Test it against a good earthing point. There is no earth lead in the switch assmebly.

A black lead which shows battery voltage (12v) when the switch is on, and takes the +12v to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay. Again, test it against a good earth, with the switch turned on. If power isn't getting to the black/white lead, then there is a problem with the lead or connectors from the fusebox. If power is getting through, but power doesn't appear at the black lead at the switch, then there is a problem with the switch - or the short lead from the switch to wherever you take the reading.
Note that internally, the switch that powers the black lead, also provides power to the engine starter switch.

Not having disassembled the switch housing, I checked the stop switch connectors (right side of bike) and only found the Black/White (12V switched). Hthere was no Black wire at that point.


The Bank Angle Sensor Relay has 4 wires.

Like all basic relays, it has two wires which control the position of the switch (on/off), and two wires which provide the power in and the power out.

Assuming the previous items tested out OK: The Red/ Orange lead is the one from the Bank Angle Sensor and should display the same 0-1 volt reading when tested against earth. If it doesn't then the red/orange lead, or its connectors at either end must be suspect. I think that this R/O lead is the return to 'earth' lead via the Bank Angle sensor.

The Black lead is the battery voltage +12v power that comes from the Run / Stop switch. Test against earth, not against the Red / Orange lead - the Bank Angle Sensor has electronics which may not respond if the probes are put on the wrong way round. (My supposition).

Another test: Hold the relay in your hand and turn on the ignition and set the Run/Stop switch to Run. You should feel the click as the relay activates.

The Black / Pink lead is the source of the battery voltage from the 20A Fuse 'L' in the rearward fuse box. It should read 12v (ish) when measured against a good earth point. If it doesn't, check out the fuse and test the cable from the fusebox to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay for continuity (ie zero resistance).

The black/white lead from the relay is the battery voltage out of the relay to the next point int he circuit. It should read +12v (ish) when measured against earth when the relay has been activated. (ie when ignition is turned on - if the bank angle sensor is upright AND the Run/Stop switch is set to 'Run'. Check the voltage against a good earth. This black/white lead provides the 12v battery voltage to various devices from this point, including various sensors, the fuel injectors and the ECM. It also provides the voltage for the next stage - the Fuel Cut-off relay.

The Red/Orange tested at .45V. The Black and Black/Pink both at 12.xV. All looks good there

The Fuel Cut-Off Relay

I have 2 circuit diagrams and the one in my 2004 Honda Workshop manual differs at this point from the superior colour version 'R' that Anna'sDad has produced. If you haven't got it, then download it - it is worth its weight in gold. I'm going with Anna's Dad's version - I trust it to be more accurate for the 2009 model ST1300ABS.

A spur of the Black/White lead that comes from the Bank Angle Sensor feeds into the Fuel cut-off relay, and is connected to both the trigger and the input voltage contacts. Check that the battery voltage is reaching this point - tested against a good earth. You could also check that the same lead is supplying a voltage to the ignition coils (and to the fuel injectors). There are other sensors too which can be gleaned from the circuit diagram.

The other trigger wire at the Fuel Cut-off relay goes to the ECM - presumably enabling / disabling the return of the trigger voltage to earth. That is the Brown/Black wire. I would be wary of putting an ohmeter on this - I don't know what the voltage that is put out by the meter might do to the electronics in the ECM.

The Brown wire is turned on only if the relay has been activated by all of the other switches / relays described above being 'switched on'. If power is reaching this point, then the next stop is the fuel pump.

The Black/White shows 12.xV. The Brown tests at 0 V, this should be some sort of hint

The Fuel Pump.

Has 3 wires. A Green wire which is connected to earth. The Brown wire provides the +12v batter voltage from the Fuel cut-off relay. Test the earth wire for continuity with a good earthing point, or the negative batter terminal. (0 Ohms). Test the brown wire for battery voltage against a good earth (+12v ish). Any fault here must be related to wiring or connectors. The other lead is for the reserve tank sensor.

If everything tests out, then the fuel pump should whirr into life. If it doesn't, you have missed something.

The Brown has no power

Ignition coils.

Low tension voltage (battery voltage) comes from the black and white leads already mentioned. The Blue/Yellow and Yellow/Blue leads (check the colours on the coils 2P connectors) feed straight to the ECM. All you can do is test for continuity (ohmeter) between the multi-pin connector and the coil.

Have not checked yet


Fuel Injectors.

Ditto the above. Check the colours of the wires feeding each injector (other than the black/white 12v lead) and find the same colours at the multiway connector that plugs into the ECM and check for continuity.

Have not checked yet
.
Ive included some of my results in the bold underline above. I'm sure these are some hints, or at least a directive as to what to test next. Thanks
 
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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

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I tested the continuity of the coil leads, blue/yellow and yellow/blue, to the corresponding ECM wires and they test good. The black/white coil leads tested at .5V with the ignition on. I accidentally tested them with the ECM unplugged and they ran at 12V each. Not sure what that means.
Can I safely assume that since the bank angle relay wires tested as
Red/Orange tested at .45V. The Black and Black/Pink both at 12.xV.
that both the stop switch and bank angle sensor are operating correctly?

Any additional info info would be great, starting to get frustrating.
Thanks
 

Igofar

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Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur.....
Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr....
Oh wait, that's for when your sick....
Never mind :shrug1:
 
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I disconnected my battery and let it sit for 20 minutes. . All that did was clear my clock and trip counter. . . . Still no power to the fuel pump. I've checked the wires for continuity from the pump harness wires and the fuel cut off relay and to the low beam relay and all checks out as it should. Battery is also solid. I tested all of my relays and they are all fine(every relay took a turn hooked up to the high beam relay). Next chance I get to work on it I will pull the front end off of it to triple check those wires. If I can't find any issues there then I'm giving up and taking it to the shop(once I work some overtime to make up for however much its gonna cost me).

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Trapperdog

Trapperdog

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I disconnected my battery and let it sit for 20 minutes. . All that did was clear my clock and trip counter. . . . Still no power to the fuel pump. I've checked the wires for continuity from the pump harness wires and the fuel cut off relay and to the low beam relay and all checks out as it should. Battery is also solid. I tested all of my relays and they are all fine(every relay took a turn hooked up to the high beam relay). Next chance I get to work on it I will pull the front end off of it to triple check those wires. If I can't find any issues there then I'm giving up and taking it to the shop(once I work some overtime to make up for however much its gonna cost me).

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
As I recall, your starting issue began after work in the front end. Have you performed the meter tests above at the Bank angle sensor relay? If my assumptions are correct, as no one has corrected me yet, if you have 12.x V on the Black/white, Black and Black pink wires, your Run/stop switch circuit is good. If you don't have 0-1V at the Red/Orange there, the Bank angle sensor, connector or wire has been compromised.
I am getting the correct voltages at that point so I suspect my problem lies elsewhere.
 
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I'm pulling the front end off next time I get a chance to work on it. .

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Jethro

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I had a fuel pump go bad in Utah in June,10000 Km. Later arrived home OK. Sat for 3 was. No start, no fuel but pump ran.
Sent to Honda dealer, another pump Assyrian. Under warranty.They said low flow.3000 Km. So far so good.
 

jfheath

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Ive included some of my results in the bold underline above. I'm sure these are some hints, or at least a directive as to what to test next. Thanks
Your test of the BAS seems to check out ok. You didn't incluDe info on the black/ white lead, but that goes to the fuel cut off relay. At that point you say it checks out at 12 v . All of that suggests that the BAS is passing on the power as it should when the bike is upright.

It doesn't mean that the BAS is fully functional - for that you would need to test that it switches off the power when tilted - but it does mean that it isn't the cause of your problem.

So move on to the next relay - the fuel cut off relay.

The black / white lead has power. The brown does not. That suggests that the fuel cut off relay is not working for some reason.

Let me explain: the fuel pump needs power, which comes from the brown lead. The relay has the job of 'throwing the switch' which connects the 12v from the black / white lead to the brown lead. Therefore that switch isn't working.

To activate the switch, the coil in the relay has to be powered. This comes from the black / white lead as well. To complete the circuit, the other side of the coil goes to ground. On my original reply, this went via the brown/ black lead to the ECM - so the ECM controlled whether or not the relay was turned on. However, in Annas Dad's simplified circuit posted earlier ( thanks David ), it goes to ground. Not sure now which arrangement applies to your bike.

So there are a couple of tests that might help.

Unplug the ECM connectors, and turn on the run switch and ignition.
Check the black / white lead is getting 12v at the fuel cut off relay (again)
Briefly bridge the black/ white lead to the brown lead at the fuel cut off relay. The fuel pump should spring into life. This is exactly what the relay should be doing. Dont do this if there is any smell of fuel - there may be a small spark when you connect the two. ****

If that works, as i expect, then move to the next test. If it doesn't i would be very surprised - you said earlier that the fuel pump whined when you applied 12 v to it, so in theory at least, this test should work.

So the next test is to check whether or not the relay can be activated. You have unplugged the ecm? Connect the 4th lead on the relay - the one that isn't connected to black/ white, and isn't connected to the brown - to a good earth. The black / white lead has 12v, so doing this his should activate the relay. The required connector is the one with either the brown/ black lead or the green lead. You should hear or feel the relay click. If it does, the fuel pump should whine. If it doesn't click then the relay is duff. Take it out and test it separately to verify that is is not operating correctly.

If it does click, and the fuel pump motor whines, then the relay is fine and that final lead is suspect. We need to know more about it.
What colour is it ? My original info was that it was brown/ black and went to the ECM . Annasdads simplified version shows it as green, connected to earth. I have seen both on different circuit diagrams.

If it is green, check the resistance of the cable at the relay end to a good earth. It should be very low or zero.
If it is brown / black then it may be going to the ecm. See if you can find the same lead at the ecm connector, and test that resistance. (ecm connector unplugged). That should be very low or zero.

Apologies for a late response. I currently have limited access to a decent internet connection !


**** Safety alert. Note that in bridging the two connectors on the relay, you are attempting to switch on a device which may draw a lot of current. Be sure that whatever you use to bridge the contacts is capable of carrying that current. If stranded cable is used, be aware that stray strands could become welded to the connector. The use of probes is a better option, with a means of rapidly unplugging the two ends, and / or the inclusion of an inline fuse between the two probes. ****
 
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