Starting Issues

Jethro said:

I had a fuel pump go bad in Utah in June,10000 Km. Later arrived home OK. Sat for 3 was. No start, no fuel but pump ran.
Sent to Honda dealer, another pump Assyrian. Under warranty.They said low flow.3000 Km. So far so good.

Click to expand...

As I have no power to the pump this won't apply. However always great info, I've had a pump not pass a flow test on another bike

jfheath said:

Your test of the BAS seems to check out ok. You didn't incluDe info on the black/ white lead, but that goes to the fuel cut off relay. At that point you say it checks out at 12 v . All of that suggests that the BAS is passing on the power as it should when the bike is upright.

It doesn't mean that the BAS is fully functional - for that you would need to test that it switches off the power when tilted - but it does mean that it isn't the cause of your problem.

So move on to the next relay - the fuel cut off relay.

The black / white lead has power. The brown does not. That suggests that the fuel cut off relay is not working for some reason.

Let me explain: the fuel pump needs power, which comes from the brown lead. The relay has the job of 'throwing the switch' which connects the 12v from the black / white lead to the brown lead. Therefore that switch isn't working.

To activate the switch, the coil in the relay has to be powered. This comes from the black / white lead as well. To complete the circuit, the other side of the coil goes to ground. On my original reply, this went via the brown/ black lead to the ECM - so the ECM controlled whether or not the relay was turned on. However, in Annas Dad's simplified circuit posted earlier ( thanks David ), it goes to ground. Not sure now which arrangement applies to your bike.

So there are a couple of tests that might help.

Unplug the ECM connectors, and turn on the run switch and ignition.
Check the black / white lead is getting 12v at the fuel cut off relay (again)
Briefly bridge the black/ white lead to the brown lead at the fuel cut off relay. The fuel pump should spring into life. This is exactly what the relay should be doing. Dont do this if there is any smell of fuel - there may be a small spark when you connect the two. ****

If that works, as i expect, then move to the next test. If it doesn't i would be very surprised - you said earlier that the fuel pump whined when you applied 12 v to it, so in theory at least, this test should work.

So the next test is to check whether or not the relay can be activated. You have unplugged the ecm? Connect the 4th lead on the relay - the one that isn't connected to black/ white, and isn't connected to the brown - to a good earth. The black / white lead has 12v, so doing this his should activate the relay. The required connector is the one with either the brown/ black lead or the green lead. You should hear or feel the relay click. If it does, the fuel pump should whine. If it doesn't click then the relay is duff. Take it out and test it separately to verify that is is not operating correctly.

If it does click, and the fuel pump motor whines, then the relay is fine and that final lead is suspect. We need to know more about it.
What colour is it ? My original info was that it was brown/ black and went to the ECM . Annasdads simplified version shows it as green, connected to earth. I have seen both on different circuit diagrams.

If it is green, check the resistance of the cable at the relay end to a good earth. It should be very low or zero.
If it is brown / black then it may be going to the ecm. See if you can find the same lead at the ecm connector, and test that resistance. (ecm connector unplugged). That should be very low or zero.

Apologies for a late response. I currently have limited access to a decent internet connection !


**** Safety alert. Note that in bridging the two connectors on the relay, you are attempting to switch on a device which may draw a lot of current. Be sure that whatever you use to bridge the contacts is capable of carrying that current. If stranded cable is used, be aware that stray strands could become welded to the connector. The use of probes is a better option, with a means of rapidly unplugging the two ends, and / or the inclusion of an inline fuse between the two probes. ****

Click to expand...

Thank you for the detailed explanation and tests to do.
I will again test the Fuel cut off relay Black/white wire and post as well.
I did switch out the relays in question with the main windscreen relay, testing that it worked both before and after switching relays. I may retest voltage on the relay leads with the known working relay in place as opposed to my previous checking only by looking for the FI light or attempting to start.
Thanks again for taking the the time to post a lengthy response, as soon as time allows for testing I'll post my results.

jfheath said:

So there are a couple of tests that might help.

I should preface this by stating that the relay has 2 Bl/W wires to it, both are switched. One has 12.x V weather bridged to the Br, or ECM plugged in or not. The other has 12.x V with the ECM UNPLUGED and .5 V with the ECM PLUGED IN. Both tests are with the key and run switch on.

Unplug the ECM connectors, and turn on the run switch and ignition.
Check the black / white lead is getting 12v at the fuel cut off relay (again)
Briefly bridge the black/ white lead to the brown lead at the fuel cut off relay. The fuel pump should spring into life. This is exactly what the relay should be doing. Dont do this if there is any smell of fuel - there may be a small spark when you connect the two. ****
The fuel pump ran with the one Bl/W wire jumped to the Br but not with the Bl/W wire that looses voltage.

If that works, as i expect, then move to the next test. If it doesn't i would be very surprised - you said earlier that the fuel itpump whined when you applied 12 v to it, so in theory at least, this test should work.

So the next test is to check whether or not the relay can be activated. You have unplugged the ecm? Connect the 4th lead on the relay - the one that isn't connected to black/ white, and isn't connected to the brown - to a good earth. The black / white lead has 12v, so doing this his should activate the relay. The required connector is the one with either the brown/ black lead or the green lead. You should hear or feel the relay click. If it does, the fuel pump should whine. If it doesn't click then the relay is duff. Take it out and test it separately to verify that is is not operating correctly.

It did click with the Br/Bl wire jumped to Ground but did not activate the pump (Bl/W was jumped to Br) and no V at Br. (ECM UNPLUGGED.)

If it does click, and the fuel pump motor whines, then the relay is fine and that final lead is suspect. We need to know more about it.
What colour is it ? My original info was that it was brown/ black and went to the ECM . Annasdads simplified version shows it as our green, connected to earth. I have seen both on different circuit diagrams.

It is Br/Bl and shows continuity to the Br/Bl at the corresponding wire on the ECM plug


If it is green, check the resistance of the cable at the relay end to a good earth. It should be very low or zero.
If it is brown / black then it may be going to the ecm. See if you can find the same lead at the ecm connector, and test that resistance. (ecm connector unplugged). That should be very low or zero.

Resistance tested as best I know how on an HP 973A set at upside down horse shoe was .1 -.2. No continuity to ground

***

Click to expand...

Fuel cut off relay wire colors as shown (As viewed from the wire side of the relay connector)

Bl/W | | Br/Bl

-- Bl/W (Changes Voltage as previously mentioned)

-- Br

Thanks!
edit: page won't save relay diagram but vertical and horizontal parallel lines are are are position noted with corresponding wire colors.

Trapperdog said:

I should preface this by stating that the relay has 2 Bl/W wires to it, both are switched. One has 12.x V weather bridged to the Br, or ECM plugged in or not. The other has 12.x V with the ECM UNPLUGED and .5 V with the ECM PLUGED IN. Both tests are with the key and run switch on.

Click to expand...

I cannot make sense of what you have discovered here. The two black and white leads are connected together in the harness according to my 2004 UK circuit diagram. They should both read exactly the same 12v. However - I said to unplug the ECM as I didn't want there to be any risk of putting 12v down a line to the ECM that shouldn't be getting +12v ! But according to the test without the ECM plugged in, you ARE getting 12v on both.

Trapperdog said:

The fuel pump ran with the one Bl/W wire jumped to the Br but not with the Bl/W wire that looses voltage.

Click to expand...

Again - if the ECM is not plugged in, that doesn't make sense if things are as they should be. The B/W wires are both connected to the same point in the harness and should behave in the same way. It may point to a corroded wire, (read the comment that was posted by another forum user - link provided at the bottom of my post #22). OR something odd is happening inside the relay.

Trapperdog said:

It did click with the Br/Bl wire jumped to Ground but did not activate the pump (Bl/W was jumped to Br) and no V at Br. (ECM UNPLUGGED.)

Click to expand...

Bl/W shouldn't have been jumped to Brown to do this test. Doing that effectively by-passes the relay ! - I wanted to find out whether the relay clicked and if it did, whether the relay activated the pump motor. But - we know that the relay clicked when the Br/Bl lead was jumped to ground.

Trapperdog said:

It is Br/Bl and shows continuity to the Br/Bl at the corresponding wire on the ECM plug

Click to expand...

Ok - that is good. From that and the previous test, it follows that the ECM should be able to switch on the relay (ie make it click). The Br/Bl lead seems to provide the continuation of the circuit required in order to allow the relay to click on - in effect, connecting the relay to earth - which was the test that you did earlier when you connected Br/Bl to earth at the relay. It might be worth plugging in the ECM, holding the relay in your hand and turning on the ignition and checking (feeling) if the relay clicks. If it doesn't, I'd be worried about the ECM - BUT there are still suspicions over the ability of the relay to turn on the fuel pump.

Trapperdog said:

Resistance tested as best I know how on an HP 973A set at upside down horse shoe was .1 -.2. No continuity to ground

Click to expand...

Yes - that is good and reproduces what you said above - ie continuity along the Br/Bl lead.

Ok - so we know that the relay clicks on when the Br/Bl is connected to earth. The ECM should do the same job - test by holding the relay as you turn on ignition (run switch on and ECM plugged in).

We have odd behaviour at one of the Black / White leads - odd because it should behave the same as the other black white lead and it doesn't seem to be behaving the same.

And I think that the relay is not switching power to the Brown lead - although I cannot tell from your description, as you had the Bl/W lead bridged to the brown.

I am still suspecting that the relay isn't functioning correctly. Maybe the switch contacts are burned out. The test I suggested wasn't conclusive as you had the bl/w and Br contacts bridged - but the fact that the relay is activating but is not turning on the pump should be enough - since you have proved that the pump motor whines if the Bl/W lead is bridged to the Br.

Do that test again. Unplug the ECM. Turn ignition on and run switch on. Bridge the Brown to each of the two black and White leads. If one activates the pump and the other doesn't, then you definitely have a problem with one of these black and white leads. They should behave the same and they don't appear to be. I don't know how you would do this, but you could try connecting together the two Bl/W leads as they enter the relay holder at the rear. They are connected further upstream anyway, and this may eliminate the possibility of corrosion in one of the leads. (if someone has tapped into the power somewhere along its length, left the copper open to the elements and it has corroded).

You could unplug the relay and measure the voltage to ground of the two Bl/W leads. You could also measure the resistance between the two Bl/W leads. There shouldn't be any.

PM sent.
=======================

Testing resistance with the HP973A. I don't know the meter, but I downloaded the manual. That funny upside down horseshoe symbol is the greek letter Omega. It is used in electronics to represent Ohms - the measure that is used for electrical resistance. Set the dial to the Ohms symbol.
Press the Range Button - each press should change the display to indicate 400 ohms, 4.0 K ohm, 40 K ohm, 400 k ohm, 4.0 M ohm, 40 M ohm. You want it on the lowest range - 400 ohm as you are testing to find if there is a resistance or not. Or hold the button down for more than a second and the display will say something like 'Auto'.

Touch the probes together - so that you know what the meter shows when there is a good connection.
Then test a resistance - eg a length of wire might give a low reading of an ohm or two. The longer the wire, the more resistance there will be.

Don't put the probes onto anything electronic - eg the ECM. In order to work out the resistance, the probes carry a small voltage, and this can interfere with some electronics. Honda specifically warn about this in their heated grip controller instructions.

Trapperdog said:

the test lamp would not illuminate between the Black/white and ground. The Volt meter initially showed .443V though. Oddly enough the voltage would rise .001V every half second or so during the test? Not sure what all that means though.

Click to expand...

Ignore the stray voltage readings. We're looking for 12 volts, any voltage reading that is two orders of magnitude less than 12 volts is not relevant.

As you are not seeing the expected +12vdc on the Black/White conductor let's take a look at the diagram in my earlier post where we see that voltage on the Black/White conductor is controlled by the Bank Angle Sensor Relay.

Using a simple volt meter:

• Confirm +12vdc is present on the Black/Pink conductor, voltage on this conductor should always be present if the 20A fuse is in good condition, as the source is directly from the 65A fuse & battery.
• If voltage is not present, check the 20A fuse (ABS=L, No ABS=J), don't bother with the 65A fuse unless nothing on the motorcycle is receiving voltage.
• If the 20A fuse is good, then you will need to determine why the Black/Pink conductor is not passing voltage, look for breaks in the insulation, corrosion on any elements, poorly connected connectors...
• If voltage is present, then check for 12vdc on the Black conductor with the Ignition Switch in the ON position.
  
  

Some of the frustration of electrical problems can be relieved by an organized logical approach to the issue, in this situation finding that the Black/White conductor is not getting +12vdc is a huge benefit. The rest is just narrowing down the related components one at a time in a logically to arrive at the problem component.

Anna'sDad said:

Ignore the stray voltage readings. We're looking for 12 volts, any voltage reading that is two orders of magnitude less than 12 volts is not relevant.

As you are not seeing the expected +12vdc on the Black/White conductor let's take a look at the diagram in my earlier post where we see that voltage on the Black/White conductor is controlled by the Bank Angle Sensor Relay.

Using a simple volt meter:

• Confirm +12vdc is present on the Black/Pink conductor, voltage on this conductor should always be present if the 20A fuse is in good condition, as the source is directly from the 65A fuse & battery.

12.x Non switched voltage is present

• If voltage is not present, check the 20A fuse (ABS=L, No ABS=J), don't bother with the 65A fuse unless nothing on the motorcycle is receiving voltage.
• If the 20A fuse is good, then you will need to determine why the Black/Pink conductor is not passing voltage, look for breaks in the insulation, corrosion on any elements, poorly connected connectors...
• If voltage is present, then check for 12vdc on the Black conductor with the Ignition Switch in the ON position.
• 12.x switched voltage is present

• If voltage is not present, check the operation of the Run/Stop Switch, check the 10A fuse (ABS=D, No ABS=C). If the switch, and fuse are good, then you will need to determine why the Black conductor is not passing voltage, look for breaks in the insulation, corrosion on any elements, poorly connected connectors...
• If voltage is present, then check that the Red/Orange conductor is a good Chassis Ground. With the Ignition Switch in the ON position, using a simple voltage meter, check voltage between a known +12vdc source, and the Red/Orange conductor.

12.x voltage is present between metered Bat+ and Red/Orange conductor

• If the meter shows +12vdc, then the Red/Orange conductor is passing a good Chassis Ground to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay, the relay is most likely at fault.

I have switched out relays with the main windscreen relay with no change

• If the meter shows no voltage, then the Red/Orange conductor is NOT passing a Chassis Ground to the Bank Angle Sensor Relay, and we need to check the Bank Angle Sensor.

• The Bank Angle Sensor receives voltage from the same source as the Run/Stop Switch, check that +12vdc is present at the White/Black conductor.
• If voltage is not present, double-check the 10A fuse (ABS=D,No ABS=C). If the fuse is good, then you will need to determine why the White/Black conductor is not passing voltage, look for breaks in the insulation, corrosion on any elements, poorly connected connectors...
• If voltage is present, check that the Green conductor is a good Chassis Ground. With the Ignition Switch in the ON position, using a simple voltage meter, check voltage between a known +12vdc source, and the Green conductor.
• If the meter shows +12vdc, then the Green conductor is passing a good Chassis Ground to the Bank Angle Sensor, the sensor is most likely at fault.
• If the meter shows no voltage, then the Green conductor is NOT passing a Chassis Ground to the Bank Angle Sensor, then you will need to determine why the Green conductor is not passing Chassis Ground, look for breaks in the insulation, corrosion on any elements, poorly connected connectors...

Some of the frustration of electrical problems can be relieved by an organized logical approach to the issue, in this situation finding that the Black/White conductor is not getting +12vdc is a huge benefit. The rest is just narrowing down the related components one at a time in a logically to arrive at the problem component.

Click to expand...

Thanks for getting back on this. As previously mentioned, on the fuel cut off relay one Black/White conductor has consistent switched 12.x V. The other Black/White conductor has switched 12.x V with the ECM UNPLUGGED in and .4x V with the ECM PLUGGED IN. I also tested the suspect Black/White conductor with the ECM UNPLUGGED and put a load on the conductor by bridging it to the Brown (fuel pump) conductor which resulted in a voltage drop back down to .4x Volts. Per the manual schematic the Black/White conductors all go to a yellow 14 pin joint connector which I believe I've seen buried under the rear of the top tank and air box. As all the Black/White are connected to this connector and per the schematic the conductor is a straight shot between the fuel cut off relay connector and the 14 pin joint connector, could we assume the Black/White conductor conductor between these two points has been compromised? Or am I getting ahead of myself
Thanks again
Roger.

Trapperdog said:

Per the manual schematic the Black/White conductors all go to a yellow 14 pin joint connector which I believe I've seen buried under the rear of the top tank and air box.

Click to expand...

I've not see an indication of this joint connector, all of the yellow connectors I've see on my motorcycle are chassis ground collection points. When the schematic indicates a connection within the wire harness, typically it is a brass crimp-on (similar to a butt splice) connector with a bit of plastic tape added, then tucked back into the harness.

Trapperdog said:

As all the Black/White are connected to this connector and per the schematic the conductor is a straight shot between the fuel cut off relay connector and the 14 pin joint connector, could we assume the Black/White conductor conductor between these two points has been compromised?

Click to expand...

A good guess, though from the Honda B&W schematic it appears that this particular conductor (Black/White) has many connections buried within the wire harness, anyone of which could be at fault.

I do have a '05 wire harness that I've opened up & spread out for examination. The harness is at home, when I get off work I'll take a look at the Black/White conductor and it's related connections.

Anna'sDad said:

I've not see an indication of this joint connector, all of the yellow connectors I've see on my motorcycle are chassis ground collection points. When the schematic indicates a connection within the wire harness, typically it is a brass crimp-on (similar to a butt splice) connector with a bit of plastic tape added, then tucked back into the harness.

A good guess, though from the Honda B&W schematic it appears that this particular conductor (Black/White) has many connections buried within the wire harness, anyone of which could be at fault.

I do have a '05 wire harness that I've opened up & spread out for examination. The harness is at home, when I get off work I'll take a look at the Black/White conductor and it's related connections.

Click to expand...

Well that's interesting. I noticed the '03 schematic showed the Black/White conductors interconnected within the harness but after that year it shows them coming together in a yellow 14 point joint connector at various locations depending on the year. I've seen a Honda's crimp on connector on the Black/Pink conductors coming to one of the relays, it had an opaque blue shrink covering under the black tape. I'll be interested in hearing what you find

Trapperdog said:

Black/White conductors interconnected within the harness but after that year it shows them coming together in a yellow 14 point joint connector

Click to expand...

You're absolutely correct. Apparently my memory isn't as good as... Um, what were we talking about?


In this photo the outer protective wrap of the OEM wire harness has been removed.
The Fuel Cut-Out Relay connector is in the upper LH corner of the photo, unfortunately the tag has flipped over, and towards the lower RH corner of the photo is the Yellow multi-point connector.


Here is a better photo of the Fuel Cut-Off Relay connector.


In this photo some of the Black/White conductors can be seen running along the lower portion of the main Wire Harness, with the Yellow multi-point connector on the RH side of the photo.


Here is a closer look of the Yellow multi-point connector, it's actually the cap that makes this connector 'multi-point' as all the prongs in the cap are electrically one and the same.


I've distilled one of your earlier posts where you detail the voltage readings on the Black/White conductors to the Fuel Cut-Off Relay.


I think when voltage drops as you've indicated it's a pretty good bet that the conductor's ability to pass current has been compromised. When no load is present, or a light load such as the voltmeter, the conductor can pass the low current at 12vdc, however when a more substantial load is presented such as the ECM or the Fuel Pump, the conductor can no longer pass the higher current at 12vdc, or at any voltage. The usual culprits for compromised conductors are corrosion at the connections, abraded insulation allowing the conductor to short..., or a break in the conductor.

While it's possible for the conductor to suffer a failure anywhere along it's length, my opinion is that barring physical damage to the conductor at some point, the most likely areas for failure is at or near the ends. After viewing the '05 Wire Harness I think the Yellow multi-point connector is well protected, as are the conductors in the main trunk of the Wire Harness. The four Fuel Cut-Off Relay conductors exiting the main trunk of the Wire Harness are wrapped with a plastic film for protection, I think I would concentrate my powers of examination in this area looking for any signs of abrasion, feeling the conductors for a weak area (indicating possible broken internal wire strands), remove the plastic wrap as necessary to aid in your examination.

I'm surprised that Honda decided to run a dozen conductors from various locations to one central point for connection, and then burying that connection within the Wire Harness.
Seems like a lot of duplicate runs that could have been handled by a single run of one conductor with individual 'branch' connections at the various locations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGztynkU88E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqnaR5fXBro

Here is a couple videos I found. Probably not the problem but might be of help.

Trapperdog said:

the test lamp would not illuminate between the Black/white and ground. The Volt meter initially showed .443V though. Oddly enough the voltage would rise .001V every half second or so during the test? Not sure what all that means though.

Click to expand...

This observation has been bugging me.

Is this voltage reading measured between the Red Service Connector and Chassis Ground, or between the Fuel Cut-Off Relay and Chassis Ground?

As you've noted (and I 'discovered') there are a dozen or more conductors in the Black/White circuit each with a specific termination, as well as a common connection at the Yellow multi-point connector. Have you been able to determine how many of these Black/White conductor specific termination points also measure low voltage?

I would expect voltage measurements on any/all of the Black/White conductors to be the same. I think it odd if you find differing voltage readings from the various Black/White conductor specific termination points, as they all share a common connection, and should all have the same voltage potential.

If indeed you discover a difference in voltage measurements, then I imagine locating and examining the Yellow multi-point connector should be on the top of your list.

If you know which of the Black/White conductor specific terminations are measuring low voltage, I can look at the my '05 wiring harness to see if these specific termination points share something in common. Which may aid in determining the location of the fault.

This probably won't help you, but my problem was user error/failure to follow instructions. When I remounted the bank angle sensor I put it in upside down(Yes it does have an arrow and "up" on the front of it) so I recounted it the correct way and rocked the engine cut off switch a couple of times and I got my Fi light and pump priming and started right up. . . . I was wrong that the bank angle sensor disengaged the starter motor once it hits it's max angle. .My stubbornness caused me look in the wrong places for my problem. Plus side is that I now have a new air filter and replaced all of the stripped screws while on my search.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Anna'sDad said:

You're absolutely correct. Apparently my memory isn't as good as... Um, what were we talking about?


In this photo the outer protective wrap of the OEM wire harness has been removed.
The Fuel Cut-Out Relay connector is in the upper LH corner of the photo, unfortunately the tag has flipped over, and towards the lower RH corner of the photo is the Yellow multi-point connector.


Here is a better photo of the Fuel Cut-Off Relay connector.


In this photo some of the Black/White conductors can be seen running along the lower portion of the main Wire Harness, with the Yellow multi-point connector on the RH side of the photo.


Here is a closer look of the Yellow multi-point connector, it's actually the cap that makes this connector 'multi-point' as all the prongs in the cap are electrically one and the same.


I've distilled one of your earlier posts where you detail the voltage readings on the Black/White conductors to the Fuel Cut-Off Relay.

There are two Black/White conductors going to the Fuel Cut-Off Relay, with the ECM connected, and the Ignition Switch in the ON position, one conductor (let's call this Conductor A) is reading +12vdc to Chassis Ground, the other conductor (let's call this Conductor B) is reading +0.4vdc to Chassis Ground (Note: When the EMC is disconnected, Conductor B will show +12vdc to Chassis Ground.

Additionally, with the EMC disconnected and Conductor B (showing +12vdc), when connected to a load the voltage on Conductor B again drops to 0.4vdc.​

I think when voltage drops as you've indicated it's a pretty good bet that the conductor's ability to pass current has been compromised. When no load is present, or a light load such as the voltmeter, the conductor can pass the low current at 12vdc, however when a more substantial load is presented such as the ECM or the Fuel Pump, the conductor can no longer pass the higher current at 12vdc, or at any voltage. The usual culprits for compromised conductors are corrosion at the connections, abraded insulation allowing the conductor to short..., or a break in the conductor.

While it's possible for the conductor to suffer a failure anywhere along it's length, my opinion is that barring physical damage to the conductor at some point, the most likely areas for failure is at or near the ends. After viewing the '05 Wire Harness I think the Yellow multi-point connector is well protected, as are the conductors in the main trunk of the Wire Harness. The four Fuel Cut-Off Relay conductors exiting the main trunk of the Wire Harness are wrapped with a plastic film for protection, I think I would concentrate my powers of examination in this area looking for any signs of abrasion, feeling the conductors for a weak area (indicating possible broken internal wire strands), remove the plastic wrap as necessary to aid in your examination.

I'm surprised that Honda decided to run a dozen conductors from various locations to one central point for connection, and then burying that connection within the Wire Harness.
Seems like a lot of duplicate runs that could have been handled by a single run of one conductor with individual 'branch' connections at the various locations.

Click to expand...

Well one of the times I wish I was wrong, it would be much easier to access and repair a broken inline connector crimp than accessing and repairing the yellow joint connector. I have traced the conductor in question from the relay connector up into two inches of the main harness and have found no physical damage. I do have some main harness wear from the frame that I have investigated previously, but will do so more in depth. Otherwise it looks like trying to access the yellow joint connector again buried deep under the tank. I was able to access it previously but not enough to do any repairs if needed, I believe the lower tank would have to be removed for full access. From your photos, it looks like the pins on the cap of the joint connector may be what ties all the Black/White conductors together. I suppose it's possible that if that's correct, the cap pin for the suspect wire could be compromised.

drtyrrel said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGztynkU88E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqnaR5fXBro

Here is a couple videos I found. Probably not the problem but might be of help.

Click to expand...

Nice find, I'd seen one other with this problem but not these videos. I have checked those connections but will inspect more thoroughly just in case.

Anna'sDad said:

This observation has been bugging me.

Is this voltage reading measured between the Red Service Connector and Chassis Ground, or between the Fuel Cut-Off Relay and Chassis Ground?

As you've noted (and I 'discovered') there are a dozen or more conductors in the Black/White circuit each with a specific termination, as well as a common connection at the Yellow multi-point connector. Have you been able to determine how many of these Black/White conductor specific termination points also measure low voltage?

I would expect voltage measurements on any/all of the Black/White conductors to be the same. I think it odd if you find differing voltage readings from the various Black/White conductor specific termination points, as they all share a common connection, and should all have the same voltage potential.

If indeed you discover a difference in voltage measurements, then I imagine locating and examining the Yellow multi-point connector should be on the top of your list.

If you know which of the Black/White conductor specific terminations are measuring low voltage, I can look at the my '05 wiring harness to see if these specific termination points share something in common. Which may aid in determining the location of the fault.

Click to expand...

This initial test was at the service/data link, ignition and run switch on, ECM plugged in. I hadn't thought about the correlation. I will re test that with the ECM unplugged to see if the voltage rises as with the fuel cut off relay suspect wire. I will also check the other Black/White connectors as well. I also recall the Black/White coil wires only having .5 ish Volts with ignition and run switch on and ECM plugged in.
I need to test more as well as investigate the schematic Black/White connectivity.

Hueyf4i said:

This probably won't help you, but my problem was user error/failure to follow instructions. When I remounted the bank angle sensor I put it in upside down(Yes it does have an arrow and "up" on the front of it) so I recounted it the correct way and rocked the engine cut off switch a couple of times and I got my Fi light and pump priming and started right up. . . . I was wrong that the bank angle sensor disengaged the starter motor once it hits it's max angle. .My stubbornness caused me look in the wrong places for my problem. Plus side is that I now have a new air filter and replaced all of the stripped screws while on my search.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Glad to hear you found the problem and got the bike up and running. Hopefully I'll be next.

Thank you and Good luck!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Anna'sDad said:

This observation has been bugging me.

Is this voltage reading measured between the Red Service Connector and Chassis Ground, or between the Fuel Cut-Off Relay and Chassis Ground?

As you've noted (and I 'discovered') there are a dozen or more conductors in the Black/White circuit each with a specific termination, as well as a common connection at the Yellow multi-point connector. Have you been able to determine how many of these Black/White conductor specific termination points also measure low voltage?

I would expect voltage measurements on any/all of the Black/White conductors to be the same. I think it odd if you find differing voltage readings from the various Black/White conductor specific termination points, as they all share a common connection, and should all have the same voltage potential.

If indeed you discover a difference in voltage measurements, then I imagine locating and examining the Yellow multi-point connector should be on the top of your list.

If you know which of the Black/White conductor specific terminations are measuring low voltage, I can look at the my '05 wiring harness to see if these specific termination points share something in common. Which may aid in determining the location of the fault.

Click to expand...

I just went out and checked the Black/White conductor connections at the data/service link and at the coils. 12.x Volts with the ECM UNPLUGGED, and .4x Volts with the ECM PLUGGED IN on the three conductors. This is leading me to suspect something is shutting down most of the Black/White conductor circuit with the ECM plugged in rather than just the one conductor at the fuel cut off relay. It's odd though that the other Black/White conductor at the fuel cut off relay isn't affected. I need to check the schematic to see just where each conductor goes to.

Trapperdog said:

I just went out and checked the Black/White conductor connections at the data/service link and at the coils. 12.x Volts with the ECM UNPLUGGED, and .4x Volts with the ECM PLUGGED IN on the three conductors. This is leading me to suspect something is shutting down most of the Black/White conductor circuit with the ECM plugged in rather than just the one conductor at the fuel cut off relay. It's odd though that the other Black/White conductor at the fuel cut off relay isn't affected. I need to check the schematic to see just where each conductor goes to.

Click to expand...

Ive been reading along, and just thought of something that may be throwing you off. When you checked the Black/White conductors and got 12.x volts, I'm assuming that you're using a digital volt meter. The meter is sensitive enough to be reading stray voltage that is leaking back through some other component. With the ECM plugged in, it may be bleeding off the 12.x, down to the .4 volts that you are reading. I would suggest using a test light, with something like a 1157 bulb, to check for voltage. Check the Black/White to ground, through the bulb to see if you have enough current flowing to light the bulb. Stray voltage has stumped me many times.

John

Nashcat said:

Ive been reading along, and just thought of something that may be throwing you off. When you checked the Black/White conductors and got 12.x volts, I'm assuming that you're using a digital volt meter. The meter is sensitive enough to be reading stray voltage that is leaking back through some other component. With the ECM plugged in, it may be bleeding off the 12.x, down to the .4 volts that you are reading. I would suggest using a test light, with something like a 1157 bulb, to check for voltage. Check the Black/White to ground, through the bulb to see if you have enough current flowing to light the bulb. Stray voltage has stumped me many times.

John

Click to expand...

John, interesting observation and quite correct. I used my test light to check the four Black/White conductor connectors that I have access to at this point which resulted in illumination on only the one Black/White conductor to the fuel cut off relay. The other previously suspect BlackWhite conductor at the fuel cut off relay as well as the conductors at the data/service link and coils showed no illumination. This was consistent weather the ECM was plugged in or not. It seems odd that one Black/White conductor is at full voltage while the others are not, even though the schematic shows all the aforementioned conductors going directly to the yellow joint connector without other splices or connectors. Perhaps Annasdad will find otherwise in his harness.
Thanks for the input
Roger