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Thread: Starting Issues

  1. #81
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    Re: Starting Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by jfheath View Post
    That is a good find, Roger, and would certainly produce the symptoms that you have been showing us.

    I have never seen that yellow 'connector' - so all of the black / white cables go into the connector, and the fitting of the cap connects them all together ?

    Yes, it's just like the Yellow ground joint connector in the right front fairing where all the conductors are connected via a brass strip with legs. No one has seen it as it is taped up within the main harness along side a pink joint connector which houses another set of ground connectors. Looking at harnesses, it's just a big hump like a snake that ate a rat.

    Not that it makes much difference electrically, but all the black/white cables come together at one point - not because they need to be connected together, but because they all need a power supply. Since the cap isn't on, all of the cables are disconnected from each other. You should be able to quickly work out which was is providing the 12v and whether it is one of the damaged cables or whether it is still intact in the yellow connector. The power, incidentally, comes from the output terminal of the Bank Angle Sensor Relay when the Bank Angle Sensor turns the relay on. The source of the 12v power is via the Black / Pink cable which comes from a 20A fuse in the rearward fuse box.

    Correct

    You could locate a second hand terminal block and then fit the wires into that. The terminals, by the way, can usually be released by pressing down a latch of metal on one side of the terminal itself. It usually requires a tool or a small watchmakers screwdriver. I can provide some photos of terminals that look to be similar if you are unsure about this.

    ive done this with other style connectors, it takes some patience, and I can never remember witch end of the connector to approach it from

    Alternatively, as previously suggested, you could install a new connector into which the damaged wires could be placed. They would need to be fed from the same power supply as the others - ie the output Bl/W cable from the Bank Angle Sensor Relay, and this would need to be have enough wires spliced from it in order to feed each of the newly located damaged wires.

    If the 12v supply is one of the damaged wires, then I would fit a new terminal and put it into an undamaged slot in the old yellow connector. Take out one of the others for this, and put the ejected cable into your new connector instead.

    Now - you don't know what current these cables are going to be carrying, but you do know that the total current doesn't exceed 20Amps. So the new power feeds have to use 20Amp cable. I find the newer thinwall stuff to be better to work with.

    There is no need to connect the new connector to the existing yellow block - everything will be connected via the power supply from the output of the bank angle sensor relay. I am assuming that the yellow cap connects everything together here. I am also assuming that the existing 12v feed from the relay is good.

    i believe the power supply from the BAS relay is one of the affected conductors, I will test to be sure. If I were to use the existing connector Parrelled with a new connector, I would have to piggy back the two in order to have power to both. There is only one remaining good slot in the existing connector so the BAS relay power B/W conductor would need to feed a new joint connector, along side the other affected conductor and a jumper from the new conductor to the remaining good slot in the old.


    Finally, you may want to check what might have caused the problem in the first place. It could be corrosion, reducing the conductivity of the cable / terminals and increasing the heat. It could be that someone looking for a convenient 12v supply had been told to tap into any bl/w cable in the harness, and then ran something like an 18amp horn off it ! It might be that a problem of this nature has already been removed.

    Thats what I was thinking and will investigate. As a former PD bike, someone could have powered something like the 200W siren off of it. (No siren at this point) Currently my major accessories, police lights, Clearwater lights and heated gear harness are powered off the battery. The Clearwater light trigger conductor, GPS and digital volt meter are on the quarterlet harness

    As mentioned previously by someone. Use dilectric grease on all terminals to protect them. If splicing / joining wires - make sure that they are physically sound. Grease them too and protect them.

    ---------------

    From the photos, those terminals in the yellow block look very much like the terminals used in the Hitachi 2P, 3P, 4P, 6P and 9P connectors. I can send you a quality photo with dimensions - if they are the same, then it should be easy enough to buy new ones.

    [Edit]
    Here you are - you may be able to tell if these are the correct ones for that yellow block.

    16.5 mm long, 4.2mm wide, 2.65mm high (excluding the 'latch')

    Attachment 186851
    Thanks for the reply

  2. #82
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    Re: Starting Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by SupraSabre View Post
    I knew that...had a senior moment!

    I wonder if a good ABS Harness from a non P model would fit/work?
    Ha, I have those daily
    Looking up part numbers, they are different. However, touching on a later civilian model harness showed it will fit the P model, but touching on the P model shows it only fits the P models. (partzilla)
    looking at Anna's Dads pic of the yellow joint connector, it has two open slots whereas mine only has one. However someone could have added a conductor to mine.
    Thanks, "Pete"

  3. #83

    Re: Starting Issues


    Thanks to everyone who has chipped in and helped AL

  4. #84
    John Heath jfheath's Avatar
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    Re: Starting Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Trapperdog View Post
    i believe the power supply from the BAS relay is one of the affected conductors, I will test to be sure. If I were to use the existing connector Parrelled with a new connector, I would have to piggy back the two in order to have power to both. There is only one remaining good slot in the existing connector so the BAS relay power B/W conductor would need to feed a new joint connector, along side the other affected conductor and a jumper from the new conductor to the remaining good slot in the old.
    If you piggy-backed the power from one to go to the other, then ALL of the current taken by the devices connected to the new connector would go through that one terminal, which is why I suggested an extra feed for the new connector. However, this may not be necessary - it would seem that all of the current from the BAS relay to all of the devices goes through just one terminal in the yellow connector block ? You can check that out. I wonder what the current rating is for those individual terminals ? I couldn't find an answer for the ones that I photographed and on my home made harnesses, I never put more than 5 amps through them, simply because I didn't know. The metal is sturdy enough - I am just being ultra cautious.

    Since you managed to get power to make the fuel pump operate by bridging the contacts on the fuel pump relay, I was guessing that power from the BAS relay is getting through OK. You will be able to check this out as well - and as we know, just 'cos it is getting power, doesn't mean that it isn't coming from a frayed lead and through a dodgy terminal !

    Which end to approach the release tag ? Well they push in from the back when the latch clicks in, so they need to be released from the front - the end without the wires. There is often a groove to allow a tool to be inserted. It helps to push the terminal in a bit from the back to help press the latch down.

    --------

    On my first 1100 I had an issue with my starter relay. I just happened to have stopped at the local dealer, in the pouring rain to get something trivial, and it wouldn't start again - so I left it there for them to sort. It turned out that the main starter relay contacts had corroded, the corrosion had travelled a foot up the wiring harness and the extra resistance had resulted in the relay getting hot and the plastic encasing the starter relay connectors had melted. Once corrosion starts, any contact with moisture (eg condensation) will be soaked up by the oxides and keep the terminals wet for quite some time. Every new bike I have had since then (3 of them) has had the full treatment to make sure that the connectors are properly coated with dilectric grease. Honda are pretty good at doing them, but things like the tail light connectors have been left exposed, I have found.
    Last edited by jfheath; 09-13-2017 at 06:54 AM.

  5. #85
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    Re: Starting Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by jfheath View Post
    If you piggy-backed the power from one to go to the other, then ALL of the current taken by the devices connected to the new connector would go through that one terminal, which is why I suggested an extra feed for the new connector. However, this may not be necessary - it would seem that all of the current from the BAS relay to all of the devices goes through just one terminal in the yellow connector block ? You can check that out. I wonder what the current rating is for those individual terminals ? I couldn't find an answer for the ones that I photographed and on my home made harnesses, I never put more than 5 amps through them, simply because I didn't know. The metal is sturdy enough - I am just being ultra cautious.

    Got it, I misunderstood regarding the extra feed

    Since you managed to get power to make the fuel pump operate by bridging the contacts on the fuel pump relay, I was guessing that power from the BAS relay is getting through OK. You will be able to check this out as well - and as we know, just 'cos it is getting power, doesn't mean that it isn't coming from a frayed lead and through a dodgy terminal !

    yes, I'll check. It hadn't dawned on me until someone suggested also using a test light.

    Which end to approach the release tag ? Well they push in from the back when the latch clicks in, so they need to be released from the front - the end without the wires. There is often a groove to allow a tool to be inserted. It helps to push the terminal in a bit from the back to help press the latch down.

    Thanks, I'll give her a go!

    --------

    On my first 1100 I had an issue with my starter relay. I just happened to have stopped at the local dealer, in the pouring rain to get something trivial, and it wouldn't start again - so I left it there for them to sort. It turned out that the main starter relay contacts had corroded, the corrosion had travelled a foot up the wiring harness and the extra resistance had resulted in the relay getting hot and the plastic encasing the starter relay connectors had melted. Once corrosion starts, any contact with moisture (eg condensation) will be soaked up by the oxides and keep the terminals wet for quite some time. Every new bike I have had since then (3 of them) has had the full treatment to make sure that the connectors are properly coated with dilectric grease. Honda are pretty good at doing them, but things like the tail light connectors have been left exposed, I have found.
    Good to know, thank you

  6. #86
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    Re: Starting Issues

    Talk about a smoking gun!

    I imagine the options for resolving this problem come down to one of three options:
    • Replace the damaged Wire Harness.
    • Replace only the damaged Connector.
    • Repair the damaged Connector.


    Replacing the Wire Harness:

    • This maybe the best solution, although probably the most expensive.
    • The time to remove and install another wire harness is extensive.
    • The cost of a new wire harness from Honda will be expensive.
    • The cost of a salvage wire harness while inexpensive in dollars, may require a thorough inspection be for you feel confidant in it's quality.

    Replacing the damaged Connector:
    • This is a practical and economical solution, however it does raise some concerns.
    • How badly damaged are the individual conductors?
    • What type or brand of connector to use?
    • Are the existing conductors long enough to use with the new connector?
    • Is there adequate room for the new connector?
    • Is there adequate room to perform the connector change over?

    Repairing the damaged Connector:
    • This also is a practical & economical solution, also with some concerns.
    • Is the connector shell salvageable?
    • How badly damaged are the individual conductors?
    • Can you source the specific crimp-on terminals?
    • Is there adequate room to perform the connector repair?


    I think the suggestion to 'solder the dozen wires together' has merit, though the thought of that much heat on the conductors, as well as the size of the finished result bothers me.

    Perhaps a different methodology of combining the dozen or so conductors might be less stressful to the conductors:
    • Cut off the damage Yellow Connector.
    • Crimp-on to each individual conductor a 3/16" ring terminal.
    • Install a brass 3/16" bolt through all of the ring terminals.
    • Install a brass nut with flat washers.
    • Tighten.
    • Insulate with electric tape.

    One more 'shade tree mechanic' thought:
    • With the metal connector removed from the Yellow Connector shell.
    • Solder the two damaged Black/White conductors to the 'backbone' of the metal connector.
    • Reinstall the metal connector into the Yellow Connector shell.
    • Secure the Yellow Connector Shell with zip-ties.
    • Wrap with electric tape.


    I did something very similar to this for the Yellow Connector (Chassis Ground circuit) found under the front cowl, with excellent results.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Somewhere I have a photo of the soldered joint, I'll post it when I find it.

  7. #87
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    Re: Starting Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna'sDad View Post
    Talk about a smoking gun!

    I imagine the options for resolving this problem come down to one of three options:
    • Replace the damaged Wire Harness.
    • Replace only the damaged Connector.
    • Repair the damaged Connector.


    Replacing the Wire Harness:

    • This maybe the best solution, although probably the most expensive.
    • The time to remove and install another wire harness is extensive.
    • The cost of a new wire harness from Honda will be expensive.
    • The cost of a salvage wire harness while inexpensive in dollars, may require a thorough inspection be for you feel confidant in it's quality.

    I agree. It is mostly the time factor involved for r/r a new or used harness, although $650 isn't exactly chump change and a used harness, particularly a PD harness will have spent many hours under stressful conditions leaving its integrity in question.


    Replacing the damaged Connector:
    • This is a practical and economical solution, however it does raise some concerns.
    • How badly damaged are the individual conductors?
    • What type or brand of connector to use?
    • Are the existing conductors long enough to use with the new connector?
    • Is there adequate room for the new connector?
    • Is there adequate room to perform the connector change over?

    I think I'm going this route using a connector from a used harness if all the remaining conductors are in good shape. If I can remove the conductors from the damaged connector and re use them, I would only have to solder on two conductors with pins from a good used connector


    Repairing the damaged Connector:
    • This also is a practical & economical solution, also with some concerns.
    • Is the connector shell salvageable?
    • How badly damaged are the individual conductors?
    • Can you source the specific crimp-on terminals?
    • Is there adequate room to perform the connector repair?

    I'm a bit concerned of the integrity existing connector considering it has had two failures already. Otherwise I might use a previous idea of adding another smaller connector and wire to the existing system

    I think the suggestion to 'solder the dozen wires together' has merit, though the thought of that much heat on the conductors, as well as the size of the finished result bothers me.

    Me too

    Perhaps a different methodology of combining the dozen or so conductors might be less stressful to the conductors:
    • Cut off the damage Yellow Connector.
    • Crimp-on to each individual conductor a 3/16" ring terminal.
    • Install a brass 3/16" bolt through all of the ring terminals.
    • Install a brass nut with flat washers.
    • Tighten.
    • Insulate with electric tape.

    One more 'shade tree mechanic' thought:
    • With the metal connector removed from the Yellow Connector shell.
    • Solder the two damaged Black/White conductors to the 'backbone' of the metal connector.
    • Reinstall the metal connector into the Yellow Connector shell.
    • Secure the Yellow Connector Shell with zip-ties.
    • Wrap with electric tape.

    I've thought about these possibilities and wouldn't hesitate to do them on a ground joint connector but am hesitant to do so on a powered connector. Not that they wouldn't work though

    I did something very similar to this for the Yellow Connector (Chassis Ground circuit) found under the front cowl, with excellent results.

    Click image for larger version. 

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Size:	51.0 KB 
ID:	186871

    Click image for larger version. 

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Size:	53.7 KB 
ID:	186872

    Somewhere I have a photo of the soldered joint, I'll post it when I find it.
    thanks for the additional input! I've gon ahead and ordered a seemingly intact harness off eBay for the connectors only which should arrive by Tuesday. Meanwhile I'll be releasing the existing joint connector from the conductors and giving things a once over
    Last edited by Trapperdog; 09-13-2017 at 03:10 PM.

  8. #88

    Re: Starting Issues

    The garage is available for you, and I've not scheduled anyone for the next week or so, in case you need a safe place to work

  9. #89
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    Re: Starting Issues

    If you scroll down on this page they sell a busbar for joining mutiple wires.

    http://www.cycleterminal.com/mp280-fuse-box.html

  10. #90
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    Re: Starting Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Igofar View Post
    The garage is available for you, and I've not scheduled anyone for the next week or so, in case you need a safe place to work
    We will see Larry. A bit too clean, well lit and organized for my taste though

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