Is the ST1300 quicker than the ST1100?

SupraSabre

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I have to say that the red is faster...
I've had a :dr13:, a :bl13: & a :bk13: ; they are all fastest! :rofl1:

Anyway, my St1100 from 1996 didnt go any faster than 220km/h (137m/h) and i have tried several times on the Autobahn. My 2007 ST1300 did 230km/h (143m/h) when i tried it this year on autobahn and there was more throttle to give if i had not been hindered by danish campers or "Baustelle".
The Autobahn is always a trip! Racing VW bugs with my Vega @ the ton :D

I have also tried to do a wheelie on my st1300, and i managed that.Thanks from this forum for howto do a wheelie!.
I've done a number of wheelies on my ST1300s, but it usually when I'm leaving a Harley in the dust! :D
 
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An engine that is not "normally aspirated" is said to employ "forced induction" which means that the intake tract is pressurized by some means. The basic purpose of forced induction is to increase the amount of air forced into the cylinders which can result in a huge power increase for a given engine displacement. The beauty of forced induction is that when you don't need the increased power, the engine reverts to its "true" size and thus in low power conditions can achieve much better fuel consumption than a larger engine operating at a throttled (low power) setting. This particularly useful for engines that have to work over a wide range of different power levels with rapid responses to throttle setting changes - such as cars and motorcycles. Ships and aircraft generally operate continuously at high power levels for long periods of time - so they are quite different from cars and bikes in that respect.

The different forms of forced induction include:
- a blower driven by the engine through either gears or a belt (this is often called a "supercharger");
- a blower driven by a turbine which in-turn is driven by exhaust gases (aka a "turbo-supercharger");
- there is a new set of developments which use a very high speed brushless electric motor to drive the blower (these are also used in the latest fuel cell developments to force hydrogen gas through the FC membrane) - these are becoming known as "e-chargers" or "e-blowers".
Maxpete, thanks for the detailed explanation. Above, you mention that the engine reverts to true size when the extra power is not needed. I thought superchargers were always driven and thus took some of the engines power away. With the CAFE requirements growing more stringent by the year, cars used turbochargers because those didn't use any power when not engaged and thus got better mileage than an equivalent car with a supercharger would. But maybe it's that turbochargers use less of an engines output to achieve the same level of boost. If you have time to comment, I'd learn something.
 
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Good afternoon Jonz!

First - I want to clear something up: debating which of the ST1100 or the ST1300 is faster is a bit....hmmmm....pointless in my view. It's sort of like trying to decide if a lemon merengue pie tastes better than an apple pie or if Cheryl Tiegs is prettier than Christie Brinkley. It's a personal thing and NOBODY is wrong.

The fact is that BOTH motorcycles are stupid-fast and ridiculous-quick, as is nearly every other modern bike.

I've owned several bikes over the past 40 (holy cow!!) years and the fact is that ANY of them - from the Honda CB360 to the Yamaha XS650 to the Suzuki GS850G to the awesome Honda ST1300 - are fast enough and quick enough to KILL me. I will admit here and now that I have actually NEVER used full throttle on my ST1300. I did it once on the GS850G but that was 1982 and I was younger and....much less wise. The ST is great - and it's really nice to never be short of power for carrying a friend, passing a string of slow pokes, climbing big hills or just for a bit of horsing a round (I may be old - but I've still got a pair) - but to actually open it up and hold it at full throttle for any length of time would a bit nutty (and would certainly result in the loss of my drivers licence). OK - sermon ended.

Now, to Jeff's question: yes, mechanically driven superchargers do consume a significant amount of power while being driven. I don't know exactly how much, but based on the fact that an AC drive consumes around 7 HP, I'd guess that a supercharger drive probably requires 10-15 HP, depending on engine and blower size. HOWEVER, modern supercharger drives have a electrically operated clutch (much like an air conditioner clutch) - that disengages the blower and thus greatly reduces drive losses when the supercharger is not in use. The control on that clutch basically "decides" whether to engage based on throttle position, engine load and other operating parameters.

A turbo-supercharger also represents a loss to the engine because it imposes back pressure in the exhaust tract - even if the turbine is just idling. However, some systems have valving which removes the turbine from the exhaust tract in low power demand situations. Also, the turbine responds to signals somewhat like a mechanically driven blower clutch, but generally there is less active control of the blower (or compressor as it is more correctly known). Some modern systems also have a variable geometry feature on the turbo inlet which optimizes system response to reduce turbo lag. All modern systems have very sophisticated engine controls on spark timing and the fuel-air mixture to keep operating temperatures, boost pressure and turbine rotor speeds within limits and ensure that pre-ignition doesn't burn holes in pistons or valves.

The fact is that automotive (or motorcycle) superchargers and turbo-superchargers are normally used for short periods of time. I'd guess just a few seconds at a time. I saw an estimate once that most automotive engines produce full rated power for less than 120 minutes over their entire lifetime. In contrast, an aircraft or marine engine operates at, or near, maximum power for MOST of its lifetime - so they are pretty different creatures. That is one reason why auto engines are seldom used in aircraft and even in marine service, they require pretty significant modifications particularly to the cooling system (marine engines normally have cooled exhaust manifolds). The aircraft and marine operating regimes are really entirely different from on-road vehicle use.

The key thing which I think that everyone understands is that either a mechanically-driven or turbine-driven intake compressor is a darned effective way of increasing horsepower - BUT - there is no free lunch and if things are not controlled very carefully, engine life will be very short and the fun will end - expensively.

Hope that helps!

Pete
 
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BarnRat
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. . . the Yamaha XS650 . . .
One of my motorcycles that I will always remember fondly. Bought a new 1972 XS650 and proceeded to ride it all the way across country, from California to Maryland. Loved that bike. Put about 40K miles on it before I sold it. It vibrated something horrible -- that vertical twin with the 360 degree crankshaft and no internal balancing mechanisms. But I still loved it.

Here's what mine looked like . . . exactly:

 
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One of my motorcycles that I will always remember fondly. Bought a new 1972 XS650 and proceeded to ride it all the way across country, from California to Maryland. Loved that bike. Put about 40K miles on it before I sold it. It vibrated something horrible -- that vertical twin with the 360 degree crankshaft and no internal balancing mechanisms. But I still loved it.

Here's what mine looked like . . . exactly:

Yup - a wonderful bike for sure BarnRat! I had a 1975 XS650B (black and gold tank) and today, I've got a red 1976 XS650C and an '81 Special II that I'm turning into a Cafe bike (photos below).
 

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ST Gui

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For practical purposes supercharges are considered to have parasitic loss and turbochargers are considered to have none (practically speaking).

The other side of the coin is supercharges have instant or near instant response where turbochargers have 'turbo-lag'. Some high end turbo install use two small turbos instead of one larger one to reduce lag. Don't know if bitubos can equal a supercharger's response time.
 

Gerhard

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I will admit here and now that I have actually NEVER used full throttle on my ST1300. I did it once on the GS850G but that was 1982 and I was younger and....much less wise.
I admit I am not near as wise as you :)

Gerhard
 

OldWingit

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I rode a '91 St1100 for 12 years and my '03 ST 1300 since then, Who cares about a little more top speed? The 13 is just a lot better on a twisty road. I also have a new '17 Ford Escape with the little 2.0 twin turbo , 245HP. If there is any turbo lag I cant feel it. Great SUV !!

Ed
 

ST Gui

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If there is any turbo lag I cant feel it. Great SUV !!
The little twin turbos are doing the job they're designed for. When someone sent my car to the body shop I had an early Escape for a week. It was a nice little SUV then.

And twin turbo you say?! :D
 
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Yup - a wonderful bike for sure BarnRat! I had a 1975 XS650B (black and gold tank) and today, I've got a red 1976 XS650C and an '81 Special II that I'm turning into a Cafe bike (photos below).
Nice stable Max!

Did later models of the XS650 do away with that funky compression release/starter lever? Maybe replaced with a stronger starter motor? I never used it much -- kick started it most the time.

I wouldn't mind picking up a used one but most that I see are ratty, in need of massive restoration and I just don't have the time for that. My hat's off to you!
 
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Dale_I

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Not to he too technical, but lack of color would be white... making "P" units most fast... maybe as it should be.

However... please read my second to last comment here:
https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?160289-August-17-MOTM-Dale_I
For the definitive answer.(drop mic=thud)

Concerning turbos, that's my world. Twin turbo systems were created to reduce/eliminate turbine lag (response time under compression) and boost threshold (how long it takes to make compression). Some of the advanced turbines will combine them into a single turbo using 2 different compressor wheels on the same shafts and compounding internally.

Normally, valve overlap is so minute, especially on the higher pressure applications, we calculate as though they were actual engine volume.

Parasitic loss on blowers is a lot. Easily into the 50 to 100 hp, of course depending on the size and engine build.

What you need to make turbocharging competitive with blowers is an intercooler. Just compressing the charge won't do it once you start running boost that heats the air volume under the compression.

I rode a non-intercooler turbo 650 Yammy back in the day. Very low boost to today's standards. Although, I did take the restrictors out of the exhaust and got to max 8 psi from 5. NO steering/frame geometry back then!
 
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Nice stable Max!

Did later models of the XS650 do away with that funky compression release/starter lever? Maybe replaced with a stronger starter motor? I never used it much -- kick started it most the time.

I wouldn't mind picking up a used one but most that I see are ratty, in need of massive restoration and I just don't have the time for that. My hat's off to you!
Yup, the first year or two of the XS650 were kick-only, then a year or two of the compression release model like yours and then they dropped the CR and beefed up the starter (a bit). Basically, the starter was never a strong point on that bike.

Pete

PS: the XS650 community is VERY active and there are really nice bikes to be had from $500-1500 USD. Check out XS650.com
 

SupraSabre

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I guess when you have four of them the reliability factor isn't all that important anyway, but I'm not following how the ST1300 means more riding time compared to the ST1100.

.
I guess my big thing about the difference between the ST1300 & ST1100 is the fuel injected VS Carbs. My v45 & V65 Sabres were all carb, a real PIA anytime you let them sit too long, or the person before you did and back then I didn't know about Seafoam, that probably would have made a big difference! Although, you sure can't beat fuel injected when going over some of these passes or places like Pike's Peak! ;)

My lawnmower is a great example of seafoam, it doesn't get just too much during the winter, and just sits in the shed. I pull it out and it usually starts right away!
 
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Hi Ed - Like you, I have been riding an ST1100 for about 15 years (1991). I am thinking it's time to upgrade to a 1300 - sounds like I won't be disappointed! I was wondering though about the difference in the amount of heat generated by the 1300. I have heard that this is an issue with some riders - and I am in Nor Cal where it can get really hot (and really cold). The 1100 definitely gives off some heat when it's hot and the fan is going. Is the 1300 worse for heat or about the same? Anything else you can tell me about the differences would be great - thanks! Did you go from non ABS to ABS for instance? How was that? Etc.
 
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I believe the V65 may be quicker (1/4 mile) than either STs. As soon as I locate the magazine article I'll post the date and times. Seems like it was 10.8 something.


Rayjoe

Can not find my magazine. (figures) I did find info online about it. Pee Wee Gleason, a professional rider, :bow1: posted a 10.6 on a stock V65 Sabre. That means you or I would probably run 11s or 12s. :eek:
 
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ToddC

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I believe the V65 may be quicker (1/4 mile) than either STs. As soon as I locate the magazine article I'll post the date and times. Seems like it was 10.8 something.


Rayjoe

Can not find my magazine. (figures) I did find info online about it. Pee Wee Gleason, a professional rider, :bow1: posted a 10.6 on a stock V65 Sabre. That means you or I would probably run 11s or 12s. :eek:
Always did love that launch on a v65 sabre.....:burnout

Rayjoe...you should join us for STOC-TOBERFEST..... you're not that far away.....

ToddC
 

SupraSabre

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I believe the V65 may be quicker (1/4 mile) than either STs. As soon as I locate the magazine article I'll post the date and times. Seems like it was 10.8 something.


Rayjoe

Can not find my magazine. (figures) I did find info online about it. Pee Wee Gleason, a professional rider, :bow1: posted a 10.6 on a stock V65 Sabre. That means you or I would probably run 11s or 12s. :eek:
It usually depends on the rider, anyway! :)
 
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All depends on who is riding them!!!
You are absolutely correct. Yes the St1300 power to weight ratio is better ,that is what really defines the difference . They are so close that "rider skill" will be the determining factor. Have blown buy many 1300's on my 1100 and I am not that skilled.
 

ST Gui

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Who is riding the bike doesn't affect which bike is quicker or faster— just who wins the contest. So you have to make up your mind just what or who is being compared.
 
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