Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

John OoSTerhuis said:

Hope this helps, Dave:
Ignition Switch Tune-Up ( ST1100 )
http://www.st-riders.net/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=38&pid=1139#top_display_media

Edit: just reread the last few posts. The main fuse Is part of the starter relay unit.

John

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Thanks for the picture of that plug. Fortunately, my plug isn't in that bad of condition, I should be able to clean it and reassemble.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

red wire bypass

http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=7130.msg58746#msg58746

Take the $10 worth of parts and some tools with you so you can do the modification if need be.

I worked on mine a couple times, then I fixed it.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

moddy said:

Let me run this one by you. Is that the gateway, when the ignition is turned that allows power from the battery to transverse through the rest of the electrical system?

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I believe that is correct. When it goes bad, all sorts of 'interesting' electrical things can happen. EMail with instructions is on the wire! ;-)

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

moddy said:

I hear everything you're saying. Right now, thinking I was about to start this thing having a pretty constant electrical connection just showed as soon as I tried to start it went dead again without moving the key I really don't understand. It could to the starter relay or the starter itself. It's just weird.

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It sounds like you have two problems : Bad Ignition switch and an intermittent connection somewhere ( that is induced when you move the handlebars ). Replace the Ignition Switch, then troubleshoot the intermittent connection.

The Red Wire Bypass is also a great thing to do - do that last after you take care of the intermittent problem.

You will need a schematic and meter to logically troubleshoot the intermittent problem.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

Colored wiring diagrams to download and print out:
http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=3908
The colors are the same as the actual wires.’
I always carry a copy in my aux tool kit on the bike. HTH

John

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

I haven't had a chance to get to the starter relay yet but wanted to let everybody know who stopped by to contribute, I appreciate it very much. When I posted to this thread, was after spending about an hour trying to see if I could find the issue myself. There just comes a point in time you want to go to a source and see what will come of it. Thanks again, it's not the first time the members on this forum have come through for me.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

So I've had a chance to explore some things. My plug at the starter solenoid was inspected and in perfect shape, excluding the age of 27 years of cold and hot. A red wire bypass is probably worth doing, with the free time, but probably not my issue.
Does anyone know, when you have removed the top portion of the plug from the starter solenoid, if you apply voltage to where the two smaller wires in the plug in back, shouldn't that charge the solenoid. If so, I get no click.
In fact, what does test positive is I have continuity at those two poles. This makes sense because it could be an electromagnetic coil, but putting 12 volts, and trying to switch polarity, does not charge the solenoid. I also may not know what I'm doing.
Another positive test with the multi meter was the two front leads also test positive with continuity. This is just what I found, don't know what it means.

Not intending to check the condition of the plug on the other end of the ignition assembly where it plugs in under the air box, I explored the plug for cleanliness and the wires for a potential short for when I rotated my handlebars all the way to the right and the dash lights came alive again, but no start (leading me to believe my starter solenoid may be faulty).
Ready to put the bike back together, suffering a short term defeat. Sure it could be something simple, it's just that I'm running out of time to properly prepare tool lists and the ability to pack a 1982 KZ750 to do this trip with instead. Not what I would call a long distance highway machine, but motorcycling it is. I'd mention thanks on this thread for the input. In the least, it gave me something else to put in my brain than my own station to listen to. Will return November 15th, but working outside in the middle of Indiana will come with it's complications and the ability to use my fingers for very long.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

I also forgot to mention that my meter set to continuity, the connector under the air box from the ignition, the wires due short with the key on, so I know the signal is being sent farther than that connection.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

Maybe becoming an electrician isn't something that I will be that good at with sleepless nights of why circuits I'm supposed to fix don't work. I wasn't supposed to post anything else on this forum because I'm reassembling my ST and beginning working on the KZ.
Well, hadn't I left the key on by accident while I was putting the airbox together, I wouldn't have seen the lights come on while putting it back together. So this is me losing my mind, inside, where it's warm, before I got back out into 45 degrees and see what the freak short I have, that it's a lit Christmas now all of a sudden.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

When I went back out to turn the key on, the electrical system did as it should, lights came on, neutral light on, choke on, and as expected no start. In fact, what a good observation to take away was, the recent consistency in there being a click, no turn over and the clock goes dead. SO...whatever it is, once replaced should do the trick. Maybe you've had this happen.
Lastly, though I've covered it before. There were about the last 10 to 15 starts, with some difficulty, but eventual, start. Then, finally, done. Not even able to get dash lights. I'm thinking starter solenoid, so, we'll see. Have to wait. Now it's wiring the KZ for fused heated gear connections, making sure the head bolts are cinched, oil is full, chain is lubed and, well, you know...all the ritualistic things you do to make it as safe as possible. mod

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

FOUND IT!!!!!! It was the battery. My 3 year old sealed battery I, let's just say, expected to go a bit longer than that. How do I know this.
When I had it all assembled from my bare handed, 45 degree weather rummage sale, I have a float charger that was on the KZ and it was time to transfer it to the pig tail on the ST. I wonder, what could the state of charge in the battery be, JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY..
12.19 volts????
I know it's cold but what??
Check again, sometimes dufus doesn't have the leads on good enough....11.9, what??
Come on, clean it up man, get a good connection, now what. 12.52, ok whatever. Why not let's turn on the ignition, while your holding the voltmeter on the battery leads JUST TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS RIGHT?
Any guesses? 54mv. For those of you who don't know how to use a voltmeter yet, that's coded for trouble with a 12 volt battery.
Ok, let's continue the sillyness, turn the key off, the battery voltage returned to 12.5. I have never seen this. I know there's a difference between potential voltage and amps. Amps be gone, the battery is toastolla.
To further drive home the point, and for your entertainment, I hooked up a battery charger to the bike and the electrical system comes alive as it should. The bike won't turn over as the charger lacks the amps for the start function, but with proper juice it does everything else consistently.
So now it's off to the battery store to have it tested and likely replaced with the inconsistent voltages, load and no load.
Without having it tested yet, it explains a lot of the inconsistent behavior of when it got around to joining me. The turning of the bars all the way to right just jostled the battery to make a connection, then no turning of the starter. Well, that's enough for now. What a major hassle, and likely fooling some of my other members with it ending up being the battery, when so many of these symptoms are other electrical components.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

I would not bother with a battery test; just buy a new one.

A failure mode of a battery is to build up surface deposits on the plates; that reduces the surface area exposed to the electrolyte and thus the current that could be generated.

I was fairly sure that the starter solenoid in my daughter's car was toast; lots of clicking but no spinning, even with a "charged" battery. With jumper cables to a good battery added, it was the same. Turns out the old battery had in internal short so could not deliver the needed amps. The same short consumed most of the jumper cables delivered power (and made them surprisingly warm). Without the old battery in the circuit, the jumper cables worked perfectly to start the car.

Moral of the story, always suspect your battery first (after checking the kill switch and fuses).

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

TerryS said:

I would not bother with a battery test; just buy a new one.

A failure mode of a battery is to build up surface deposits on the plates; that reduces the surface area exposed to the electrolyte and thus the current that could be generated.

I was fairly sure that the starter solenoid in my daughter's car was toast; lots of clicking but no spinning, even with a "charged" battery. With jumper cables to a good battery added, it was the same. Turns out the old battery had in internal short so could not deliver the needed amps. The same short consumed most of the jumper cables delivered power (and made them surprisingly warm). Without the old battery in the circuit, the jumper cables worked perfectly to start the car.

Moral of the story, always suspect your battery first (after checking the kill switch and fuses).

Click to expand...

Yeah, I would definitely like back, the 3 1/2 hours I burnt finally getting to the battery. It was only 3 1/2 years old. When tested at the Zone, it showed that it was weak, not nearly as severe as I expected it be, HOWEVER,
the decision to replace was confident due to adding an outside source of 12 volts from the battery charger and watching everything come alive.
Before I upgraded to a 40A alt, the battery up to today took all of the odd charging beating, not to mention 2 years previous when I went on the Appalachian Trail for 7 weeks, my buddy put it on a float charger that wasn't always charging it. I've got some riding to do today after I get that battery in of course, and just see what happens.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

Battery is in, engine started, onboard voltmeter shows 14.4 volts at idle, so I find it mildly humorous my voltmeter at the battery says 14.26, oh well, welcome to the world of nominal voltage. Uncle Phil's pdf for the red wire bypass was timely. When I pulled the red wire for closer inspection, I managed to crack off one half of the connection, so, having round connectors and an astute ability to solder (due to needing to have to learn) I will extend the red wire, ring it and attach it per diagram.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

Who doesn't like pictures.

Why I did the red wire bypass way earlier than I thought I would.


Well worth the effort to do this, making a better connection and joining the ranks of many mods.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

When I have electrical problems, I pretty much always start at the battery/battery connections and work outward. I've even had a battery die when I put one of my ST1100s on the center stand (Yuasa battery). And on ABS ST1100s, you can get all sorts of strange error codes if there is a problem there. I'm glad you got it sorted!

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

Uncle Phil said:

When I have electrical problems, I pretty much always start at the battery/battery connections and work outward. I've even had a battery die when I put one of my ST1100s on the center stand (Yuasa battery). And on ABS ST1100s, you can get all sorts of strange error codes if there is a problem there. I'm glad you got it sorted!

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I'm glad I got it fixed too. If I know I can't ride I start thinking weird things and talking to my wife about buying another bike to be able to ride in the meantime.
Additionally, for your further entertainment when I suited up to go on my first ride my zipper broke. This will end well as when you buy new gear it comes with extra zippers for some special reason. So having saved this zipper I will sew it in so I don't look like another old man statistic who's walking around not having zipped up their pants.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

Glad you got it all sorted out too!! After you get back from this ride, if you need to get together in a warm garage to finish up any other items, juST let me know.

Gary.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

GreenZR said:

Glad you got it all sorted out too!! After you get back from this ride, if you need to get together in a warm garage to finish up any other items, juST let me know.

Gary.

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Count on that. When I get too cold I start to not be able to move and think like I want to. Wait......
Unfortunately after I replaced the battery having had a long issue with cruise control not engaging I got the idea that it may not have been engaging because the fault in the battery, though my engine would continue to run, might have been what was disengaging it. This is not true. That's also another long and prosperous ongoing thread.

Re: Bike won't start and it did yesterday. Leave in 5 days for a 1700 mile round trip

Just keep me posted when you get back, and we'll give the cruise control a go over with two thought processes.