Where did the recommendation for Honda M-77 Assembly Paste start?

Oldbikefixr said:

I vote for.....let's dump this can of worms on the floor.

I emailed American Honda about the extinction of M60 grease. Got a real phone call this morning.

1-M77 is the recommended replacement for M60, according to 'engineering'
2-Most any moly grease, assembly lube or paste will work as a sub for the 'intent' of the original M60 suggestion by Honda.....also according to 'engineering'.
3-The important thing is to keep the drive splines lubricated and hard grease removed prior to applying fresh grease.

All this according to Honda engineer, Massi, who phoned me....was hoping for an emailed response I could share. I'm just a messenger this afternoon.

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Useful information, and thanks for sharing it, but rather than putting it to bed, it leaves us (me at least) in more doubt. It is at odds with what the chap from Honda UK told me. Post #33. Not that I am saying that the Honda UK response is definitive because he says that the Motul stuff is what they are using. He doesn't say that Honda have told them to use it. He says that is should be OK, not that it is OK.

The USA Honda chap does say it is the recommended replacement for M60, but chose to phone rather than send a written reply.

His suggestion that Moly grease is Ok, we assume to be incorrect - the Workshop Manual makes a clear distinction between the use of MoS2 grease and MoS2 paste.

It is difficult to separate fact from opinion, and so far I don't think we have a definitive answer.

I am looking for a paste, NGLI #2 consistency, 40% MoS2 minimum, waterproof, stays put and is approved for use under extreme pressures.

The Dow Corning M77 paste does not meet that last criteria. I'm of the opinion that Dow Corning make the M77 for Honda, but I can't find now why I believe that to be the case. Possibly because I have seen it referred to as Molykote, and that is a Dow Corning trade mark.

One things for certain - I wont be using M77, and I won't be using the Motul stuff either. But I will continue reading up on the suggestions to see if the spec matches.

Does anyone with a later Honda Workshop Manual than mine have any other recommendations for the Moly Paste ? The Info in my manual (A2/A3) is on the page with the symbols, immediately before the section 1 index for General Information.



But from post #1, we seem to have a clear indication that the M77 stuff doesn't stay put, and we know the Dow Corning M77 is suitable for low to moderate pressures - from their spec sheet.

C'mon, you expect us to believe you talked to a real person at Honda ????

What the Honda engineer said puts my mind at ease. I will sleep like a baby tonight - but I usually do anyway. I have a clear conscience and my short memory helps, too.

But seriously ( seriously ) My 2-cents : Since TS Moly-Lubricants says their GD-525 ( 30 % moly ) is good for motorcycle splines, so maybe Honda finally realized the 60% Moly paste was over kill. Sure, it won't hurt to use it, but M-77 may be more than adequate. And since M-77 is 20 % moly, I feel more than comfortable using the "HELP" Moly grease, especially since my splines look great after using it for 30K miles.

I doubt Honda makes either the 60% moly paste or M-77 grease. They probably listen to their supplier's ( TS Moly-Lubricants ?? ) recommendations with respect to the application, I bet.

jfheath said:

But from post #1, we seem to have a clear indication that the M77 stuff doesn't stay put

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Not that clear. I have applied it twice and while I havent taken the wheel off this winter, when I removed it last winter, the M77 I had put on the previous winter was still there and wasnt that easy to remove... ODD

Found this short article over at wing world that sort of explains the issues with lubing the splines and what they are investigating. Unfortunately, I cant find any updates, but still an interesting read...
http://archives.wingworldmag.com/december2002/magazine/article/lubrication.html

BTW, Polaris also has "high content" ujoint moly grease. About $5 for a 3 oz tube.

I'll stick with the Dorman "HELP" CV joint grease, tho.

Oldbikefixr said:

All this according to Honda engineer, Massi, who phoned me....was hoping for an emailed response I could share. I'm just a messenger this afternoon.

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First and foremost I take this as Gospel not that my take means anything. It's too bad you didn't get an email. It would have been nice to post the contents in the ST Wiki or make a sticky about it and put a stake in the debate's heart.

Oldbikefixr said:

3-The important thing is to keep the drive splines lubricated and hard grease removed prior to applying fresh grease.

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I know nothing of either especially about the level of performance compared to one another. Other than providing M77 in place of M60 it seems Honda hasn't done anything else to address the change in a Service Bulletin or equivalent?

Maybe a service manual for CTX/F6B/late model GW would show M77 instead of M60?

ST Gui said:

Snip .......

Maybe a service manual for CTX/F6B/late model GW would show M77 instead of M60?

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Very good idea, IMHO. Looks like we will get more mileage out of this thread until we finally put a stake in it if we can get that info.

I just got a response from Gary, a CTX1300 Owner on the CTX1300 Forum. He said the Honda CTX1300 Service Manual says to use moly paste with at least 40% moly such as :

Molykote G-n paste manufactured by Dow Corning USA
Honda moly 60 ( USA only)
Rocol ASP UK
Rocol Paste manufactured by Sumico lubricant, Japan

Doesn't look like M-77 is good enough for a CTX1300.

Oldbikefixr said:

I vote for.....let's dump this can of worms on the floor.

I emailed American Honda about the extinction of M60 grease. Got a real phone call this morning.

1-M77 is the recommended replacement for M60, according to 'engineering'
2-Most any moly grease, assembly lube or paste will work as a sub for the 'intent' of the original M60 suggestion by Honda.....also according to 'engineering'.
3-The important thing is to keep the drive splines lubricated and hard grease removed prior to applying fresh grease.

All this according to Honda engineer, Massi, who phoned me....was hoping for an emailed response I could share. I'm just a messenger this afternoon.

Click to expand...

Or....you called American Honda, got somebody on the phone who didn't even know what Moly 60 was, who yells in the back room to a Tech (mechanic/assembler), and recommended M-77 paste because that's what he thought would work and has been using .
That's no different than walking in your local Honda shop and asking the service guy what to use, and he yells back in the shop to one of their mechanic's, who then yells back that they use Belray water proof grease because its what's back there.
Really, how many of us have seen folks working on Honda's that use whatever they have on hand and telling folks its OK? Most every shop in my area uses Golden Spectro engine and gear oil from 55 gal drums, but tell/sell the customers Honda brand products.
I'd call back, and request an email letter be written and sent to you.

caldercay said:

Are we referring to this (part #08734-0001):


Honda discontinued that? I was at Honda of Houston recently - they always had it hanging in the parts area. That day, they did not, and I asked if they moved it. The parts person said they don't stock it, but could order it.

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So i stopped at Honda of Houston on the way back after i got a 'Q', and sure enough, they want to order M77 :/ He said the same thing someone here wrote - "maybe 60% is overkill". They had a non-Honda moly paste on the shelf, forget the name now, but we checked the MDS - it stated 30% moly.

It's not so much the percentage of molybdenum (is 60 % by weight or volume?) that is important but what is the binder that keeps the lubricant in suspension and on the mating surfaces? 77 is silica based IIRC and rated at much lower pressure and temperature.

Jim Van said:

I just got a response from Gary, a CTX1300 Owner on the CTX1300 Forum. He said the Honda CTX1300 Service Manual says to use moly paste with at least 40% moly such as :

Molykote G-n paste manufactured by Dow Corning USA
Honda moly 60 ( USA only)
Rocol ASP UK
Rocol Paste manufactured by Sumico lubricant, Japan

Doesn't look like M-77 is good enough for a CTX1300.

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That is exactly what my St1300 manual says. Rocol ASP isn't made anymore, but their reply to my query a while back is posted in Post #17.

Igofar said:

Or....you called American Honda, got somebody on the phone who didn't even know what Moly 60 was, who yells in the back room to a Tech (mechanic/assembler), and recommended M-77 paste because that's what he thought would work and has been using .

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He stated - They called him back in response to his email.

Or............. He actually talked to someone that did know what they were talking about. Not everyone is as uniformed as you seem to think they are.

Facts - Moly 60 from Honda is not available.
Conscientious on this forum is that the M77 is not a good replacement for the splines, to which I agree.
Even though that is what several have replied to from different Honda personal that is their recommendation. (Honda)
There have been several members that has replied to an good substitute to the Moly60.

Looks like the GD-525 ( 30% moly ) is a better choice than M-77 ( 20 % moly ). I'm going to take a chance and continue using the Dorman "HELP" CV joint grease since it has given me good results over the last 30K miles.

But, I would like to know what % moly the Polaris u-joint grease has. All it says on the tube is "high moly content".

Jim Van said:

Looks like the GD-525 ( 30% moly ) is a better choice than M-77 ( 20 % moly ). I'm going to take a chance and continue using the Dorman "HELP" CV joint grease since it has given me good results over the last 30K miles.

But, I would like to know what % moly the Polaris u-joint grease has. All it says on the tube is "high moly content".

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Here's the MSDS link

Found this on a Valkyrie website: I wrote a letter to Mother Honda years ago telling them just how inferior and insufficient that grease is. BTW its not a paste as advertised. Its good for both ends of the driveshaft, THATS IT. They replied to me by phone call (no paper trail) their answer was something to the effect that my letter was the best complaint letter they ever read, it was respectful and intelligent and right on the money and I was right in my accusation that they don't use the product their selves. In essence they said ya we know its inferior but its what we have to sell and not enough people have complained yet.

***this was a letter about the Honda M-77***

This is also Popular on the Goldwing and Valkyrie websites: http://www.tsmoly.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=89

Oldbikefixr said:

Marketing concerns me sometimes. 'Machine tool marks and other irregularities are reduced to a mirror-smooth finish........' directly implies abrasion, not lubrication, although on a fine scale.

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FYI.... When machining a part (ie turning on a lathe) many variables affect the finish of the part.... One of them is friction, by reducing friction between the cutting edge and the part being machined, via a lubricant, the finish can/will be smoother or closer to a mirror-smooth finish... No abrasions involved....

caldercay said:

Here's the MSDS link

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I don't see Moly listed. Did I miss it? I was looking for some mention of moly/Moly/MoS2/molybdenum disulfide.

OK, I've read the tread.... Seems everyone is right but why not make life simple.... Loctite Moly Paste has 65% moly, readily available... Nuff said, what am I missing?

ST Gui said:

I don't see Moly listed. Did I miss it? I was looking for some mention of moly/Moly/MoS2/molybdenum disulfide.

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Yea, the only component i found that might be close is "synthetic graphite".