2018 Honda Goldwing - Nikasil Plating vs. cylinder sleeves?

Gug · Dec 20, 2017

I have read that the new Goldwing has (plated?) aluminum bores (Nikasil/Alusil) the latter less applications to my knowledge. There is not much current information on this application available that I have found on the net. I did find this article <<<(see link)from 2016. From what I have read there are pros and cons many based on the application.

Any engineers or folks in manufacturing that could enlighten me on this?

BakerBoy · Dec 20, 2017

Not sure what you're asking Gug. But Nikasil liners in aluminum engines have been around a long time--many Honda autos have Nikasil liners (or perhaps some special variant under that general category).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

Upt' North · Dec 20, 2017

Nikasil and Alusil have been around for many years, and are a common treatment for cylinder bores. Alusil being developed to combat issues with high Sulphur fuels. There is nothing to fear from these treatments, in actual fact they make the engines we know and love very reliable and long lived. They are a combination of metal and ceramic materials.
Hope it helps.
Upt'North.

T_C · Dec 20, 2017

Isn't our ST1300 the same?

dduelin · Dec 20, 2017

My 1981 BMW had Nikasil plated aluminum bores. Plated cylinder bores have been around since the late 70's. It's good proven technology.

jettawreck · Dec 20, 2017

Very common for many years in two stroke engines especially in the snowmobile industry. Less weight (no iron liner), better performance, etc. Biggest issue is you can't simply bore a damaged cylinder to an oversize like a conventional iron liner w/o sending the cylinder(s) off to a specialty shop for replating, which is often an expensive procedure.
Probably not much need to in four stroke motorcycle engines as wear/failures are rare. Engine piston damage/failures are rather common in high performance two strokes and cylinder scoring means replacement or replating in a coated cylinder.

Oldbikefixr · Dec 20, 2017

dduelin said:
My 1981 BMW had Nikasil plated aluminum bores. Plated cylinder bores have been around since the late 70's. It's good proven technology.

AFTER the Chevy Vega had a stake driven through its heart and was buried in hallowed ground.

dwalby · Dec 20, 2017

jettawreck said:
Probably not much need to in four stroke motorcycle engines as wear/failures are rare.

I seem to recall some sportbikes started using nikasil liners back in the late '80s to early '90s. I'm guessing it was a weight savings over steel liners, or maybe cost less to produce, or both.

Chef Jim · Dec 20, 2017

Oldbikefixr said:
AFTER the Chevy Vega had a stake driven through its heart and was buried in hallowed ground.

An old girlfriend had one of those Vega's. The engine crapped out at 50,000 miles. We replaced the engine with one that had steel sleeves.

bdalameda · Dec 20, 2017

In the early 60's and 70's many two stroke engines had hard chrome plated cylinders. These cylinders had a thin layer of cast iron that was plated with the hard chrome layer. The hard chrome was very oil retentive and had good wear characteristics and improved cooling as the cylinder liners were much thinner than conventional steel or cast iron liners. The biggest issue with hard chrome was being that two-stroke engines have ports in them, the rings could catch on the edges of the chrome as the cylinders wore, and the chrome would begin to peel away from the cylinder. Also in the days of air cooled two-stroke engines, piston seizures were common and this would also damage the chrome plating. Nikasil was developed in Germany mainly for the new Wankel Rotary engines as a very tough coating was needed for the rotor chambers that would stand up to the rotary engine apex seals rubbing on the surface of the housings. Nikasil is made of a mix of nickel and silicone carbide. This surface is not a dipped type of plating but applied almost like a mini explosive type pressure application where the coating is blown onto and impregnated into the surface of the cylinder. The surface of this coating is also very porous and it holds onto lubricants very well and is much longer wearing than typical iron or steel cylinder liners. The latest cylinder coatings are similar to Nikasil (trade name) but have been further improved. Most of the improvements came in the mid 70's when Suzuki Motor company developed their Rotary Engine motorcycle where they developed their own patented process for coating the rotary engine internal housings. It was discovered that this coating worked very well for piston engines and Suzuki Licensed the technology and most new coated cylinders use this process. Similar to Nikasil but not quite the same. I don't remember the name of the newer process.

Dan

Ron · Dec 20, 2017

Moto Guzzi developed a form of Nikasil many years ago.

AFTER the Chevy Vega had a stake driven through its heart and was buried in hallowed ground.

Chevy engineers delivered the stake before production started. Once in process, correction was impossible. After the first 6 months, Chevy should have replaced the engine with an Iron Duke from Olds/Pontiac. For free. Wouldn't have helped the rust problems but ...

dduelin · Dec 20, 2017

Oldbikefixr said:
AFTER the Chevy Vega had a stake driven through its heart and was buried in hallowed ground.

I'm guessing GM did not use a Nikasil coating.

caldercay · Dec 20, 2017

Upt' North said:
Nikasil and Alusil have been around for many years, and are a common treatment for cylinder bores. Alusil being developed to combat issues with high Sulphur fuels. There is nothing to fear from these treatments, in actual fact they make the engines we know and love very reliable and long lived.

Really? Ask an early-release XK8 owner what they think about Nikasil.

Do a Google search using the words nikasil jaguar and see what turns up

dduelin · Dec 20, 2017

caldercay said:
Really? Ask an early-release XK8 owner what they think about Nikasil.

Do a Google search using the words nikasil jaguar and see what turns up

It must be the Nikasil. Everyone knows how well built and reliable Jaguars are.

SupraSabre · Dec 20, 2017

Oldbikefixr said:
AFTER the Chevy Vega had a stake driven through its heart and was buried in hallowed ground.

Chef Jim said:
An old girlfriend had one of those Vega's. The engine crapped out at 50,000 miles. We replaced the engine with one that had steel sleeves.

dduelin said:
I'm guessing GM did not use a Nikasil coating.

I owned several Vegas. Even though the engines had their weaknesses, the cars themselves handled pretty good! I put a steel sleeved engine in a '72 GT to take to Germany with me. The car did great on the roads we had there and was running great until a friend drove it for over an hour over 100mph and caused one of the sleeves to separate and come loose.

4:

My last (I had 3 Vegas, 1 Monza w/305 and a Pontiac Astre stationwagon) was the Astre, after putting a steel sleeve engine in it, the trany gave out a year later, so I found a wrecked Monza stationwagon with a v6 in it, swapped everything over to the Astre and drove that around for a number of years!

The most fun was the 77 Monza with the 305 V8. That sucker moved!

dwalby · Dec 20, 2017

dduelin said:
It must be the Nikasil. Everyone knows how well built and reliable Jaguars are.

caldercay · Dec 20, 2017

dduelin said:
It must be the Nikasil. Everyone knows how well built and reliable Jaguars are.

Depends on who owne[s/d] them, I suspect. I had a '96 XJ6 (the Ford years), with the inline 6. i never had any major issues, and had almost 190k miles on it until Harvey took it away from me. I forget who owns Jag now - an Indian manufacturer, Tata, I think - not sure what reliability is nowadays.

The issue with the early XK8's was a two-fold problem - the cooler engine temps combined with high sulfur amounts in the fuel (in some parts of the world) created sulfuric acid, which ate away the Nikasil. Jag eventually switched to using steel liners.

Bmacleod · Dec 20, 2017

SupraSabre said:
The most fun was the 77 Monza with the 305 V8. That sucker moved!

That I can attest to. They were quick. The car wasnt designed for a v8... you had to undo the the mounts and raise the engine to change the plugs, which is how I came to drive a v8 Monza Spyder. Did a tuneup on one and then test drove it for a couple of hours. Grins from ear to ear the whole time

Upt' North · Dec 20, 2017

Re Caldercay, yes early adopters always pay the price and it wasn't only Jags, Beemers had massive issues with the 328 but I was sort of relating to best practice that shows this can be a very acceptable engineering solution to a difficult issue.
And yes I drove quite a few Jags in the 90's and they were pretty much poop. Although there was a definitely a cool factor in driving a marked up Jag, can't imagine your Highway Patrol used them over there.
Getting back on track, I think Honda will get it right, although i still wouldn't early adopt.
Upt'North.

Gug · Dec 20, 2017

Thanks for the insight folks.

No doubt if Honda is using this on the Goldwing I am sure they tested this to death.

2018 Honda Goldwing - Nikasil Plating vs. cylinder sleeves?

Gug

BakerBoy

It's all small stuff.

Upt' North

T_C

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace

jettawreck

Oldbikefixr

dwalby

Chef Jim

bdalameda

PaleoCyclist

Ron

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace

caldercay

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace

SupraSabre

48 Years of SoCal Lane Splitting/Commuting-Retired

dwalby

caldercay

Bmacleod

Upt' North

Gug