Pros and Cons of DCT vs manual

As most of you know, I'm planning to purchase a 2018 Goldwing in the near future. I'm pretty sure I've made the decision on the red color, but I'm having second thoughts on my initial plan to get it with the DCT transmission.

My first thought on the DCT was, "I want one!" Now after having some time to consider my decision, I'm having second thoughts and considering a manual. I thought that I'd list my Pros and Cons and get some other opinions from the masses.

DCT

Pros
1. Hey, it's cool. It's finally here. Latest and greatest, gotta have it.
2. You don't have to shift.
3. Has a forward "walking speed" similar to the Wing reverse. ( Not sure if it's electric or DCT driven)
4. Has some sort of "hill assist" when starting on grades.
5. Has 7 gears.

Cons
1. Unproven on the Goldwing platform.
2. More things that can go wrong. (Switches and control modules)
3. Probably can't limp home after any transmission error.
4. Unknown performance pulling trailer or camper.

Manual Transmission

Pros
1. Finally has the 6th gear that I keep looking for.
2. Almost $1000 less.
3. You get to shift.
4. Don't have to reprogram brain, when switching between bikes.

Cons (I don't have problems with these)
1. You have to shift.
2. You have to change clutch fluid.
3. You have to know how to start off uphill.

Ride Safe
John

Been thinking on the same issues on that choice.
One of the things that keeps inserting into my mind about DCT vs. Manual is the forward AND reverse walking mode in the DCT version. Manual only has the commonly known reverse which is similar to walking mode in reverse only. Another, and seems to loom larger in my mind, is that reverse in the DCT IS transmission driven, not electric motor driven. I read an article a few months ago about how it is implemented in the new Wing transmission. The manual version is electric motor driven and I think I read that it is a separate motor from the Starter/Generator motor. I had the GL1500 with the electric reverse that was powered by the starter motor. It was nice just having reverse on that bike, but I was always concerned about how using reverse was putting a strain on the starter motor. These details are not in any way primary in my thinking, but if all else were equal then these details would decide the matter to me (transmission powered reverse and walking mode in both forward and reverse).

I've had a bike with a true CVT. Works the same as DCT but is definitely different with no "gears" in the tranny. I didn't have much problem jumping back and forth, nor getting used to the benefits of not needing to shift. I did play with the simulated paddle shifting provided but only a few times and decided just to let the bike do it all. Don't have any reservations about towing a trailer with it. I know a few riders who had the same CVT powered bike I had (Burgman 650) and towed Mini-Mate campers from Washington state to the Mid-West and farther many times with no issues. I expect either version of the new Wing to have no issues doing the same.

JMHO
-

Given Honda’s strong track record of success in introducing new technologies, I don’t think I’d be too concerned about the reliability issue nor the trailer towing operation. I’d guess they have tested the living bejeezers out of this thing.

I’m not sure why I’d use the forward walking speed function - but the reverse function certainly does sound like a plus to me and as I understand it, that is available with the new 6 speed manual GL variant.

Overall, if I were buying a new Gold Wing, I’d go for the manual, just because I understand it, it is simpler and lighter and it’s $1000 cheaper. Honda has tried automatics in several different model bikes over the last 40+ years and none of them have ever really caught on - not because they didn’t work well or because of any durability issues. People simply didn’t like them as much. I guess, that could make resale value a concern.

To me it’s sort of like the Mazda Wankel rotary engine - not bad, but not that lovable either.

“When the horse is dead....dismount”.

The forward/reverse walking mode is probably easier to use than the reverse on my present Wing. On my '08, you put the bike in neutral, push the reverse mode button, then press the starter button. To pull forward, press the reverse mode button again, wait a second while the trans shifts out of reverse, then put in gear. I'm assuming on the DCT, you would just put in neutral, then just press the Forward/Resverse button of your choice.

I seldom use reverse, but have had to, on a couple of occasions where it was a nesessity, like the time some idiot blocked an exit to parking lot and I had to back up, uphill........with camper attached.

Mellow....hope you do not mind me linking over to another site....but much discussion on DCT....pros/cons/loves/hates...!!
As for me....all thumbs up :yes: :yes: and :clap2:
[delete if you do not wish this here]

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/11kmiles-over-1-year-on-crf1000l-manual-then-dct-my-experiences.1252398/

and...

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/dct-transmission.1147699/

Having had a season's riding experience with my DCT equipped VFR1200X, I would absolutely choose the DCT version of the new Goldwing, if I was "in the market".
a) you can't stall it
b) when stuck in monotonous urban traffic, its nice to have the shifting done for you
c) when you're experiencing road rage, and all you can do is accelerate in anger, there's a certain satisfaction - you're not a scared rabbit, you're a pissed rabbit!
d) no helmet burping with your passenger
e) although not tested, it might be better when tearing up the side of a gravel pit? maybe not...
Honda - the joy of riding!

DCT is not an automatic and has absolutely nothing in common with previous Honda bikes offered with an "automatic" prior to DCT.

Once acclimated to a DCT bike there isn't any "reprogramming" necessary when switching back and forth to a manual shift machine. You can change DCT mode to full manual and you get to shift and when in any auto mode you can override the DCT with manual upshift and downshift paddles - you still "get to shift" if you want. Something tells me though and once you get used to DCT you'll find shifting overrated.

Honda has had tremendous success with DCT with some models selling 70% DCT to 30% manual when offered on the same bike. It's not really new tech anymore - it was released in the 2010 VFR both F version and later in the Crosstour X version; 2012 models of Integra, CTX700, NC700X; 2015 model of Africa Twin.

After owning a DCT Honda for 25,000 miles I feel so strongly about it that there wouldn't be a reason for me to debate it if I was looking at the Goldwing. I'd take the DCT hands down. For the cons DCT has, it offers advantages that far outweigh them.

dduelin said:

Something tells me though and once you get used to DCT you'll find shifting overrated.

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As I'm no hot shoe I tend to agree 100% though never operating a DCT bike. I guess shifting is fun for some people. For me it's just the cost of riding a bike. You'd think some people see not shifting as some kind of emasculation.

And about the DCT 'walking gear'— it would be handy when maneuvering a bike into a garage to park. I have to park really close to the wall and I'm on the balls of my feet to move the bike back and forth since I can't ride straight in. So on a bigger heavier bike that walking gear would be helpful.

It would serve well in a cramped parking lot where backing into a space isn't easily done. And you have the option of just driving it 'head first' using reverse to get out if needed. It's good to have options.

MaxPete said:

Honda has tried automatics in several different model bikes over the last 40+ years and none of them have ever really caught on - not because they didn’t work well or because of any durability issues. People simply didn’t like them as much.

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Interesting comment. First I have talked with many folks that have the Honda DCT in several different classes of motorcycles and all have said that they would not go back. I also belong to the Crosstourer forum for the VFR1200X and they did a pole of members and here are there results. But I think there is a caveat most of these members are in Europe so I think the commuter riding impacts there decision but that is a guess.



I ended up with a manual more because it was what I was looking for at the right price used. I am confident that I most likely would have bought this same bike if it were a DCT.

After doing some internet research, (yeah, I know. Don't believe anything). There have been a few cases on UK NC750DCT's, with water in the switches, rendering the bike dead in the water. ( No pun intended) And one case in the UK of an Africa Twin going into a false neutral, over revving due to not being in gear, then dumping the clutch resulting in an unexpected wheelie!

It may depend on a coin toss.

Nashcat said:

After doing some internet research, (yeah, I know. Don't believe anything). There have been a few cases on UK NC750DCT's, with water in the switches, rendering the bike dead in the water. ( No pun intended) And one case in the UK of an Africa Twin going into a false neutral, over revving due to not being in gear, then dumping the clutch resulting in an unexpected wheelie!

It may depend on a coin toss.

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I think you are either joking with your research results or else looking for bias confirmation.

Dave, I wish I were joking about my research, since I really think that I want a DCT. But before I drop 25K on a bike, I'm going to read everything that's out there, and then try to apply a BS filter to sort out the results.

Here's the article on the AT, with the false neutral problem. If I can find the link to the water in the switches, I'll post it also.

http://www.africatwinforum.com/forum/393-africa-twin-trail-tales-ride-reports/4617-warning-dct-riders-do-not-ride-if-you-have-sticky-left-switchgear.html

Ride Safe
John

Nashcat said:

Dave, I wish I were joking about my research, since I really think that I want a DCT. But before I drop 25K on a bike, I'm going to read everything that's out there, and then try to apply a BS filter to sort out the results.

Here's the article on the AT, with the false neutral problem. If I can find the link to the water in the switches, I'll post it also.

http://www.africatwinforum.com/forum/393-africa-twin-trail-tales-ride-reports/4617-warning-dct-riders-do-not-ride-if-you-have-sticky-left-switchgear.html

Ride Safe
John

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You are doing your "Due Diligence" in research to make the right decision. I am looking at the DCT myself in red and the nice thing with the DCT is the 7th gear is another whole gear and you have the luxury of manually shifting it via cantilever's on the left handlebar cluster. I need to ride one, see what kind of mileage it gets, how it handles and a list of others to satisfy my needs before spending 25+K on a bike.

Nashcat said:

Dave, I wish I were joking about my research, since I really think that I want a DCT. But before I drop 25K on a bike, I'm going to read everything that's out there, and then try to apply a BS filter to sort out the results.

Here's the article on the AT, with the false neutral problem. If I can find the link to the water in the switches, I'll post it also.

http://www.africatwinforum.com/forum/393-africa-twin-trail-tales-ride-reports/4617-warning-dct-riders-do-not-ride-if-you-have-sticky-left-switchgear.html

Ride Safe
John

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John, I'm well aware of reported problems with Honda DCT machines having been active in various forums for the NC and AT since 2012. You will likely find posts by me in some of them and there are many such 'reports' because even 1 incident rattles around the internet, reverberating and repeating endlessly in many different forums. I'm not going to pay much attention to one or 10 reports when there are millions of miles under happy satisfied owners.

That's why I replied as I did and why I wouldn't even consider a manual version when DCT is offered. I was right where you are in 2012 when I was trying to decide to trust DCT with the purchase of a 2012 NC700X. DCT was a $2200 upgrade back then. I ultimately decided on a manual version then closely watched how the DCT was accepted by it's owners. Three years later I bought a second NC in DCT. I'd never go back to a manual on that bike and wish that I'd bought DCT the first time.

dduelin said:

I wouldn't even consider a manual version when DCT is offered

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The Honda brand's market share has surely benefited from the DCT offering. Now if the proverbial ice cream dispenser could be built into the top box, imagine the effect on sales!

catcher said:

The Honda brand's market share has surely benefited from the DCT offering. Now if the proverbial ice cream dispenser could be built into the top box, imagine the effect on sales!

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They will also pick up a few sales from guys who physically can't use the left foot to shift. More than a few vets, accident and stroke survivors who can't manually shift anymore. Tricycle kits have helped many back into riding.

FWIW. I've been riding an Africa Twin with DCT for about a year now. Had all of the same doubts and reservations as everyone else posting here. Also read every review I could find on the Honda DCT. What convinced me to try it was how most (maybe all) of the reviewers started out expecting not to like the DCT. But by the end of their time with it, they were just raving about it ....in a good way. Figured the worst I could do is not like it and then I'll find a way to make it go away and get something else. I gotta say, for me , it's been fantastic! Not pushing it on you. I realize each of us has different wishes and goals for a bike. But if you're at all tempted, you should give it a try. I don't think you'll regret it.

AK

My GW buddy and I have been discussing the new 'Wings. I'm high on the DCT and he's says he'd probably get the manual. He hasn't articulated but I'm guessing he's just not sure about DCT and has the feeling that 'manual is better' probably based on 'what he knows'. And I have no experience with DCT and only know what I've read here.

He has a GS1200R and uses the clutch-less shifting (?) all the time. I think there may be some aspect of that he's not crazy about but I don't recall.

How is the BMW's shift similar to Honda's DCT (if at all)? It's not that I'm trying to get him to switch types but just understand exactly what's what.

ST Gui said:

...
How is the BMW's shift similar to Honda's DCT (if at all)? It's not that I'm trying to get him to switch types but just understand exactly what's what.

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Not similar. Basically, BMW automates the shifting of their existing manual transmission--it is a factory bolt-on to many bikes (such as my RT). Honda's DCT uses a completely redesigned transmission to enable dual clutches. Honda's is much more refined and advanced. You can search for BMW Shift Assist Pro and you'll find LOTS of chatter about it, including more prominent ways it is lacking and/or 'fails'. I expect BMW will continue to make improvements (they need to). My opinion.

I'm still leaning toward the DCT, but not putting down a deposit until I ride one.

I realize one instance can lead to mass hysteria when announced on the web. I'm still searching for the dangerous cold engine stall, or the ghost shifting problems on my current Wing. Seems like everybody has those problems but me. Also, I still can't find the Pan-weave on the ST1300, when over 100MPH with top box attached, although I keep looking every chance I get. And for some strange reason, I've never crashed and burned from running the alternative choice for rear tires on 2 of my bikes.

At least I didn't start another oil thread!

Ride Safe
John