Pros and Cons of DCT vs manual

sky.high said:

I have to admit I do find it amusing how we don't think computers can mimic our human actions when self drive cars are already a reality and are better drivers than humans, we're on the verge of a robotic revolution that will likely present one of the biggest challenges to our society. I sure DCT works just great on all situations, many already stake their lives on it and plenty more will follow, still we are curious by nature but not to far away from that curiosity being obsolete in an automated world most of us will never be able to understand the inner workings of.

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I'm not in agreement with your premise that "we don't think computers can ...". My/our seeking to understand how DCT handles certain situations does not prove doubt or outright disagreement about use of computers or automation.

I work around equipment that has computers, programming, automation, robotics. I benefit from it, and enable its advancement. And yet, there's a very good reason to be cautious and diligent. Human-designed and programmed controllers are fallible. Even though they are much more precise, repeatable, reliable, and speedy in response to inputs, they also precisely, repeatably, reliably, and speadily make sometimes-serious errors. It is very disconcerting when a system does something that the programmer didn't intend--it is often accompanied by a programmer mumbling "it can't do that". Yet it did. So I/we ask how Honda's DCT behaves in certain situations.

ddemair said:

I think self-driving cars are getting closer and closer to prime time, but they're not really here yet. They're still running trials and there's still a human behind the wheel. Are they better? Well, better at hitting the brakes, yes, but probably not better at understanding a crossing guard's vague signals or a police officers verbal instructions.

I am not a luddite at all, but where human safety is involved, I'm a big fan of healthy skepticism.

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This! Self-driving cars are very good. Yet there are still wrecks with deaths or injuries (to passengers in the car or to others around that car) when their owners trusted them in situations in which the computer/programming logic and sensory input failed to handle a situation correctly (which the human could have handled correctly).

I'm rooting for Honda and DCT, as it is likely beneficial to me someday in a future motorcycle. My questions are for the purpose of learning and understanding. DCT's success (and goodness in strange situations) has raised the standard of performance of transmissions and will cause the competition to innovate and improve as well. We all win.

I also expected someone here (Dave Duelin) to answer my questions and affirm that Honda's DCT handles the odd situation well. :yes:

Yet if/when I get one someday, I will still personally test it to understand how well it works and where/how I can get into trouble with it.

dduelin said:

No human can kick down 3 or 4 gears as quick as this does and the downshifts are smoother than my 700X.

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An acquittance owns a VFR1200X (AKA Crosstourer) with DCT and concludes as follows:

definitely nice for "flatlanders", just pull the cable and go... hauls *** and that...
once it comes to some serious business, very narrow, slow cornering, tight back-sweeps, parking lot U-turns or the "urban warfare" of daily commuting, he selects M...

The GL was and is a different thing, the flat six never suffered EFI jerking and the large gearbox is spacious enough for lots of goodies and gadgets inside...

ST1100Y said:

An acquittance owns a VFR1200X (AKA Crosstourer) with DCT and concludes as follows:

definitely nice for "flatlanders", just pull the cable and go... hauls *** and that...
once it comes to some serious business, very narrow, slow cornering, tight back-sweeps, parking lot U-turns or the "urban warfare" of daily commuting, he selects M...

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My experience would be totally opposite. I've had both manual and DCT versions of the 700 and DCT.......about 30,000 miles on one and 25,000 on the other. Of course I give your friend the full weight of his opinion, I just disagree.

Something that is often not mentioned in limited use reviews is how much freedom the rider is given in regards use of the hands and feet in challenging terrain as in "not in the flatlands". These things are a joy to ride in technical situations that draw heavily on our skill sets. Auto clutch bikes allow use of both hands and feet to start, stop, and steady the bike on and off slopes and grades. This freedom may not even be thought of until you need to use the left hand for a task when stopped and you also have to switch feet to access the shifter and find neutral while doing the left hand both feet two step. Hustling down tight narrow technical roads the full attention of the rider can be directed at line selection, entry speed, and braking. Again, YMMV.

dduelin said:

Something that is often not mentioned in limited use reviews is how much freedom the rider is given in regards use of the hands and feet in challenging terrain

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That makes sense. One issue I have when the road gets challenging is that I'd like to avoid upshifting while leaned over because my foot under the shifter will be the first thing to touch down. It's not a big problem as it rarely happens (I almost never ride that spirited and can usually plan my shifts ahead), but when it does happen, it's a little unnerving, especially the time the ground kicked my foot completely off of the foot peg.

Having the bike decide or using paddle shifters seems like a big plus.

You don't want to downshift in the middle of a left hand corner either as you are pushing your foot and shift lever towards the ground where you have very little clearance. Best to do your shifting before or after a lean

dduelin said:

Auto clutch bikes allow use of both hands and feet to start, stop, and steady the bike on and off slopes and grades.

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Start stop maybe...
When I move/roll/ride through a narrow, tight maneuver (i.e. steep uphill back-sweep, 2-up and luggage thus like 1500lbs motorcycle in motion, staring into the rad-grille of an opponent coming lumber semi, coach, RV or whatever, (of course) halfway on my side of the road, leaving me like 3ft width of tarmac... "pushing" the bike into a deep leaning angle (chest vertically), balancing speed (thus the bike) with rear brake, throttle and clutch I cannot afford a delay or judder in the drivetrain... I'd tip over or at least face a massive jerk in my trajectory/line, forcing me into the green, the rock-face or into named other vehicle... ;-)

In this I already largely dislike the "minute of silence" by the auto-tranni in scooters:
me filtering through dense city traffic, gridlock, I aim to perform an Italian style 90° between the (stationary) cars right of me, halfway through, right at the apex the leaned 300cc looses speed, I give the throttle a bit to compensate... nada... thus I've to steer further in to prevent tipping to the right... won't do, handlebar already stuck on my right knee, scoot leans even further, me eyeballing the LHS headlight if the car I'd intended to fly by... darn tranny GIMME THRUUUUST!!!... more throttle... finally the weights the converter kick in so the meanwhile already screaming 300cc aggregate suddenly coughs its unfailing, infinite torque onto the belt, resulting a sudden leap forward, now jerking the ride to the other side... so me in distress, pin-balling between the cars like on a bucking pony, barely not hitting any of them... :lol:

Automatic in a 2-wheeler? Yeah-right... I want this, right now... :wink:

I'd dump that scooter if I were you. I've never had any hesitation in either my Burgman 650 (CVT so no gears hence no shifting so no hesitation between gears) or my wife's Metropolitan scooter (49cc typical scooter type auto tranny). Your scooter must be one of those Chinese knock offs or has a major problem in the tranny. With that issue it's expected you'd be skeptical of any automatic or DCT that does the shifting for you.

I have no reservations about riding with DCT, but I am curious how well it performs and how well the bike overall performs in person.

ddemair said:

It's not a big problem as it rarely happens (I almost never ride that spirited and can usually plan my shifts ahead), but when it does happen, it's a little unnerving, especially the time the ground kicked my foot completely off of the foot peg.

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That has never happened to me exactly. Not that I'm a great planner but I just don't normally push hard through a turn. But once I did press on fairly briskly and my toe caught the asphalt is an uncommonly spirited left turn and I wasn't even shifting. My foot wasn't kicked off but almost tucked under the peg. It was initially unnerving and later realizing what might have almost happened— it was a little scary. So now I'm wary.

I always have the balls of my feet on the pegs on roads other than highways, much better feel of the bike and no chance of getting an asphalt surprise, so far I've not managed to grind the ST pegs but did grind an f6b on a demo day!
I imagine the dct will happily change gear through corners, something most of us try to avoid, guess dct is a better rider!

rjs987 said:

Your scooter must be one of those Chinese knock offs or has a major problem in the tranny.

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Nope! :8):
Vespa 300 GTS and Honda SH series, whilst the latter are at least more spacious...

With that issue it's expected you'd be skeptical of any automatic or DCT that does the shifting for you.

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This and the feedback on the FJR with DCT...

There could well be a little left and right side of the pond thing going on here too. Nothing new there!
You chaps and chappesses are very used to auto tranny's in car and trucks, not so over here, although we are catching up. Also some real issues have been encountered with some DCT gearboxes fitted to cars, like they don't do what they're told. Some European and Japanese manufacturers are moving away from DCT to Torque Converter boxes.
This may hinder the sales to some.
At the end of the day it's down to personal preference and comfort zone. Also very much the riding environment.
I'm not in the market for any new bikes at the moment but it would be down to how it felt on a VERY long test ride and it being covered by a good long warranty.
FWIW.
Upt'North.

ST1100Y said:

Nope! :8):
Vespa 300 GTS and Honda SH series, whilst the latter are at least more spacious...


This and the feedback on the FJR with DCT...

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DCT is not a CVT and the auto clutch FJR was not DCT either. Just saying.

I have a question about DCT. I have ridden one (CTX700 dct) but didn't play with it much, just rode it and let it do it's thing . Lets say you are in sport mode and using the paddle shifters and are cruising along in 5th gear. Some knucklehead pulls out in front you. You apply maximum braking coming to a quick stop, but didn't do a thumb dance. Does the DCT automatically downshift to first for you even though you were on sport mode and using the paddles, or do you have to sit there and thumb down 4 gears to get back to first?

dduelin said:

DCT is not a CVT and the auto clutch FJR was not DCT either.

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I know :wink:
I was hanging it primarily on the "minute of silence" that maybe might occur in such systems, and then of course always in the worst possible moment...

the Ferret said:

I have a question about DCT. I have ridden one (CTX700 dct) but didn't play with it much, just rode it and let it do it's thing . Lets say you are in sport mode and using the paddle shifters and are cruising along in 5th gear. Some knucklehead pulls out in front you. You apply maximum braking coming to a quick stop, but didn't do a thumb dance. Does the DCT automatically downshift to first for you even though you were on sport mode and using the paddles, or do you have to sit there and thumb down 4 gears to get back to first?

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In that situation the machine would sequentially downshift to 1st as you come to a stop. It will do this if in one of the automatic modes or if in full manual mode. When coming to a stop it always downshifts to first even if the rider does not.

ST1100Y said:

I know :wink:
I was hanging it primarily on the "minute of silence" that maybe might occur in such systems, and then of course always in the worst possible moment...

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Top racers learn to make corners in neutral for the rare occasion when they miss a critical downshift under braking. Mere mortals simply crash after the "minute of silence"

dduelin said:

When coming to a stop it always downshifts to first even if the rider does not.

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What if I'm forced to brake in anger, not to fulls stop but to a speed that would require like 2nd gear cause I need to make a serious take-off there for avoidance?
I assume it shifts in accordance to rear wheel speed?

ST1100Y said:

What if I'm forced to brake in anger, not to fulls stop but to a speed that would require like 2nd gear cause I need to make a serious take-off there for avoidance?
I assume it shifts in accordance to rear wheel speed?

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Yes, it does use trending wheel speed, gear selected and throttle position. Like a competent rider it will be in the correct gear for the situation either to continue braking or to accept full throttle again to take off. Less skilled riders braking in anger might or might not have available brain power to handle the clutch and downshift all at once. Their brains are hands-full of just braking. I'm not at all saying you or any of us are in the latter group but for those that are Honda gives them a safety net.

I acknowledge the system isn't perfect given all the situations we are faced out there but I don't see compromises as safety issues where the machine is slow to react. Opposite - it shifts quicker than any human and never misses a gear. The major issue I have on my bike is that it likes to come into a corner one gear higher than I would choose when riding aggressively. I want the extra engine braking of the next gear change and to be higher in the power band when getting back on the throttle. However, when this happens I just override it and thumb one more downshift to choose the gear I want. If I make a mistake and choose to do this and this choice is ill-advised because the downshift would over rev it (the so-called $$$ money shift) the box overrides me. Later models than mine offer more choices in Sport mode than my bike does - it has only one Sport mode shift program. Newer ones have three Sport modes One is less aggressive, then middle ground, and the other is more aggressive. To stay on topic to my knowledge the new Wing has just one shift program per selected mode of Tour, Sport, Rain, and Econ.

dduelin said:

Less skilled riders braking in anger might or might not have available brain power to handle the clutch and downshift all at once.

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Operating brake, clutch, throttle, horn and PASS button simultaneously is essential, and should happen out of reflex...
Witnessed riders getting hit just because they didn't use the horn during their evasive maneuver...

Opposite - it shifts quicker than any human and never misses a gear. The major issue I have on my bike is that it likes to come into a corner one gear higher than I would choose when riding aggressively. I want the extra engine braking of the next gear change and to be higher in the power band when getting back on the throttle.

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Might on one side be owned to safety, to fuel economy on the other (gov regs and that..)
But confirms what the Crosstourer guy expressed, nice for everyday, feel ambitious go manual :8):
In the end it circles down to weight added (if any), long term reliability and price...