Question on ST1100 cams and the dual gear setup

Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Virginia
Hello,

I have a question on the ST1100 style cams where as there is a dual gear on the end, I see that they are slightly offset from each other so I have always thought that was to maintain tension with the driven gear with which they mate.

My question - on this spring-loaded dual-gear setup has anyone (other than me) seen them rotate and change position with relation to one another?

A bit more....my 1996 model has 98k miles and I was changing the timing belt and inspecting the clutch, while I was at it I decided to check valve clearances (last checked at ~60k miles) and I found that I had two exhaust valves out of spec on the right side. I have had the cams out and in a few times before so this was not a new procedure to me, I did as I always do, after lining up the index marks facing outward, for a little extra checking I always mark the two gears on the cam and the cam retainer cap so that it is a quick reference for putting the cam back in the correct orientation. This time, after changing out shims on the two exhaust valves, when I dropped the cam back in I noticed that the two marks I made on the cam gears were a whole tooth away from each other. I went ahead and finished installing the cam and the cam bearing caps, aligning the index marks with the head properly, but again the marks I made on the two gears were not in alignment anymore. Then while I was doing something else I heard a loud click or snap, like possibly a follower or spring had moved or sprung. I was able to install the exhaust cam without issue, I just had never seen before where the two gears on the cam had shifted in alignment from each other.

Here's a pic of the cam setup and what I'm talking about (no marks shown, just a generic pic).



Anyone else seen this? Just being cautious, loooooove my ST and it runs so good with some carb adjustments I did a few years ago, I want to make sure it stays happy,

Thanks in advance.

-mtnpat
 
Last edited:

wjbertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,411
Location
Ventura, CA
Only thing I can think is one of the cam driven gears was not properly meshed with the drive gear. The split driven gears should come into alignment as the cam holders are snugged down. After some time the split gears were forced into alignment and the cam dropped down into full engagement? Might want to double check the torque values on the cam hold downs. Total guess though...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
3,518
Location
British Columbia
Bike
2021 RE Meteor 350
Not sure if this is any help to your situation, but I mark both the crown and the root where the cam gear meshes into the driven gear, so that I know that is a perfect match from how it came apart. The cam will rotate as the holder bolts are removed, from the valve spring pressure. First time I did the job it freaked me out, as I hadn't marked the opposing gears. I'm not quite understanding how you marked yours, so maybe this is what you already did.
 
OP
OP
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Virginia
Thanks for the replies so far, I will include some proper pictures tomorrow with some red lines and arrows, etc better explaining what I experienced.

-mtnpat
 

ST1100Y

Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
5,032
Age
59
Location
Vienna, AuSTria
Bike
ST1100Y, ST1100R
STOC #
637
hmm, no need to place any "markings" on the cams, rather stick to the OEM punch-marks at the end of each cam, which are dead on...
 

Attachments

OP
OP
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Virginia
I agree there should be no need to mark anything, just use the lines on the ends of the cams per the manual, pointing outward in this case, right where I started. BUT, I started a habit of marking the cam gears against the front cap with a Sharpee, just because it wouldn't hurt. Like so:



This time when putting the cam back with the line on the end of the cam where it should be, those same marks were here:



So the two-gear driven setup had moved. Plus as I mentioned I heard a loud metallic snap sound after properly torquing the 6 bolts in a criss-cross pattern to 12 nm. Like 30 seconds later, something (these gears) decided how they wanted to mate. Am I correct that these are probably spring-loaded? Anyone ever have one of these units apart?

I have not seen this the 2 other times I have had the cams (all of them usually) out.

Awesome help guys.

-mtnpat
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
5,066
Location
soCal
Bike
'97 ST1100
STOC #
687
I've never paid attention to those gears so I can't say for sure, but my guess would be the spring action came from the valve springs rocking the cam back into place. Anybody know why there are two gears instead of one in the first place?

I use the punch marks on the ends of the cams for alignment so I wouldn't have known if this happened or not in the one or two times I've had to adjust mine.
 

ST1100Y

Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
5,032
Age
59
Location
Vienna, AuSTria
Bike
ST1100Y, ST1100R
STOC #
637
Am I correct that these are probably spring-loaded?
Their definitely spring-loaded to reduce slag and noise; while inserting either align them by slight push onto the reduction gear, or give them a slight/gentle aid/twist with a big, flat screwdriver (no brutal force there please...)
The mention of a metallic snap during assembly is slightly worrying; sure that you haven't incidentally rotated the spring-loaded sprocket into the wrong direction (so actually unloading the spring inside)?
 

Slydynbye

Will ride for Pie
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
1,614
Location
Fremont, California
Bike
2000 ABSII
STOC #
7331
Their definitely spring-loaded to reduce slag and noise; while inserting either align them by slight push onto the reduction gear, or give them a slight/gentle aid/twist with a big, flat screwdriver (no brutal force there please...)
The mention of a metallic snap during assembly is slightly worrying; sure that you haven't incidentally rotated the spring-loaded sprocket into the wrong direction (so actually unloading the spring inside)?
That sounds about right, the bad news is I think that's what I did one time and it snapped the gear tooth on the Center gear. Not a pretty sound.
 
OP
OP
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Virginia
No brute force used. Something happened after de-installation. The cam gears are no longer spring-loaded, the teeth on each are in direct alignment with each other now (when un-installed, on the bench).

While there is a snap ring and maybe I could fix, I think I'm better off finding a used camshaft, and I think I found a set of exhaust cams, says they are from a 99 (mine is a 96, same part #). I would greatly appreciate it if someone else would take a look at the pics in this ebay sale and tell me what you think of the condition!

https://www.ebay.com/i/372118274268?chn=ps

Thank You!

-mtnpat
 
Last edited:

John OoSTerhuis

Life Is Good!
Joined
May 10, 2005
Messages
5,219
Location
Bettendorf, Iowa
Bike
1991 SSMST1100
STOC #
1058
I heard a loud metallic snap sound after properly torquing the 6 bolts in a criss-cross pattern to 12 nm
Just another thought... not all of the 12 camshaft holder bolts are 45mm, 4 of them are 40mm.

FWIW, whenever I've had my cams out for shim adjustment I've marked the gears so they went back on exactly as they were when pulled.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Virginia
That sounds about right, the bad news is I think that's what I did one time and it snapped the gear tooth on the Center gear. Not a pretty sound.
Made me look!

Nothing wrong with gears and really there was no problem with de-installation, installation of the cam except I noticed the change in the marks I had made.

-mtnpat
 
OP
OP
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Virginia
Just another thought... not all of the 12 camshaft holder bolts are 45mm, 4 of them are 40mm.

FWIW, whenever I’ve had my cams out for shim adjustment I’ve marked the gears so they went back on exactly as they were when pulled.
Thanks, I am good as far as this, I am always very careful to put all bolts back in the same holes. There were no problems with fully and easily seating the cam caps/holders or torquing them down. The load metallic snap was heard at least 30 seconds (probably more) after I finished the installation without issue and I would bet money it came from the cam gears.

-mtnpat
 
Last edited:

ST1100Y

Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
5,032
Age
59
Location
Vienna, AuSTria
Bike
ST1100Y, ST1100R
STOC #
637
I would greatly appreciate it if someone else would take a look at the pics in this ebay sale and tell me what you think of the condition!
https://www.ebay.com/i/372118274268?chn=ps
Do look fine to me, you can clearly see the offset on the spur-gears (thus spring-load mechanism intact), no significant wear marks...

...not all of the 12 camshaft holder bolts are 45mm, 4 of them are 40mm.
Yep...
Recently refurbed a black '96 and apparently one of the POs (or mechs) bogged one bore... :?
Had to install a TimeSert... runs smooth again... :8):
 

wjbertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,411
Location
Ventura, CA
Anybody know why there are two gears instead of one in the first place?
The two gears are purposely spring loaded to go out of phase when not meshed with the driven gear. When installed, and forced into alignment, the spring load serves to eliminate gear lash and therefore noise such as rattling and whine.
 
OP
OP
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
60
Location
Virginia


The pins in the spring mechanism broke, both of them. Catastrophic failure. Sure glad good used replacement parts are still available.

I ordered a set of exhaust cams from a 99 on ebay, will install just the RH side.

-mtnpat
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
5,066
Location
soCal
Bike
'97 ST1100
STOC #
687
I've never seen cams in any other bike that used this spring mechanism, the drive sprocket was always bolted directly to the cam. Never paid close enough attention when R&Ring the ST cams to even give this a thought. I know Honda engineers are considered god-like on this forum, but this seems like over-complication for very little benefit. <Stepping into flame-retardant suit>
 
Top Bottom