Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cables

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So I have been one of the unlucky ones and have had my drive gear for the power windscreen motor break. Over the years people have looked into coming up with a fix but to date there hasn't been anything actually done. Maybe this time it will be different.

So since we have a long cold winter here I have been running through options with my bike tore apart. The options have been around what would it take to get it working again and what would it take to actually improve on the system to keep it from happening again. I had a few goals in mind while doing this. I wanted to keep costs as low as possible. I wanted to come up with a modification that people could actually do themselves. I don't have time to set up shop like Spencer does with his saddles and wouldn't want people sitting with a bike down waiting on me to perform a modification to their mechanism. I didn't want to sacrifice range of motion or feature (changing angle) or the original. I also didn't want it to take up much room because a lot of people (including myself) stuff lots of stuff under the fairing on these bikes.

Anyhow, I really think I have come up with something to do this. I am going to be going over this with a few other members at a Tech Event on Saturday here in MN. There are two options that I have been looking at. One is a chain drive system. This would add more to the cost as chain is more expensive though it might be possible to do a bicycle chain drive to keep costs down. The other option would be a belt drive using a Kevlar core timing belt. This will be cheaper for components but would be a little more complex in terms of having to use some form of tensioner. Then there are some parts that will need to be made that may be an issue. While I have a pretty good shop and can machine some small stuff on my metal lathe, I don't have a mill and I would need one to make some brackets (4 per kit). If I can design them so that they are universal so all 4 are the same it would help on costs but I will likely have to go to one of those on-line machine shops to make them. I have access to a mill to do a couple but it isn't convenient.

Now keep in mind that I am really early in the design phase of this and don't have a working prototype but just gauging interest in this as it would take an investment on my part. The cost won't be cheap. I am thinking a ball park would put it at around $200. That is taken from my initial virtual shopping trip for components and a guess at the manufacture of the brackets.

However it would do a few things. Retain the changing angle of the windscreen like stock, retain full range of motion and not take up any more room than the current poorly designed system. Best of all it would completely replace the poorly designed aspects of the original so if something were to fail the failed component could be replaced easily. Basically you will be fully removing the motor, cables and gears that are part of the existing mechanism and bolting in the new drive components. Being it is custom designed and it is early in the design phase it will be built robust enough that you will no longer have to worry about slowing down to move the wind screen or if you have a "barn door" on the front of your bike. It would be built strong enough to take the abuse.

It may even be possible to make this at two price points. One for a stronger chain and sprocket design and the other for the timing belt. I don't see any reason to be concerned about the durability of the timing belt option but it could be made available if someone wanted to spend a little extra. The only thing that would change are the sprockets and belt vs chain. The big dollar item so far seems to be the new motor that will replace the existing one. While we haven't seen any motor failures that we know of, it will be too hard in an initial look to reuse the existing motor and I am looking to other power options. So like I said this is really too early to give a good cost estimate but a ball park guess would put it at about half the cost of a replacement mechanism from Honda which is currently $370 at the online discount places. Much more at a dealer.

So what kind of interest is there in something like this. Should I pursue this further or do people think it costs too much and they would rather go with a stock replacement? Personally, I am going to be making at least one of these. If there is interest I will make a few extras for others once I work out the details provided it works out as planned.
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

If you have the parts made on a CNC right up front, it will be an easy matter to have them replicated as often as you want in the future. I did this once with a tail rotor bracket for a model helicopter. I designed it on AutoCAD on my lunch time at work, and a buddy of mine converted it in Gcode really fast. It turns out nobody was interested, but still, if somebody wanted one, it would be real easy to produce it. If you have the time...
 
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sennister
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

SENN - Could it possible be used on a 'modified' ST1100? ;-) Sounds like it might ...
Well I really don't know that it could. Well at least not cost effectively. You see I am not replacing the entire assembly. There is nothing wrong with the tracks and windscreen mounts. Other that they can be hard to move but some better lubrication in that area will likely help. So since I am planning on stripping out the drive from the old system and reusing the tracks and brackets those would be needed to do an adaption to the 1100. Plus I will be using the original limiting switches and relays. So the only way this could be moved to the 1100 would be if you could find a dead unit from a 1300 or buy a new one. Then once that was mounted and set up I guess this kit could be used to modify it but cost wise it would be really expensive.

Well I guess you could say that anything could be done but it won't be cheap.
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

I will be shopping around for motor options. They seem to be a big dollar item. I found some that are a less expensive but the question will be if it is strong enough to run this setup.

The mechanics of this seems simple enough but there are a couple brackets that will take some fabrication to get worked out.
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Thanks for noodling on this problem!

I would like to vote "yes", but my goal is to keep my lubed and minimize adjusting it while moving so that I won't need to buy one.

But if I do need one, "yes" I'd rather have one that is better than the original and $200 seems not out of line. :)
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Don't need one now, but when I do, I'd rather spend $200 for something that's more durable than the stock unit .


Too bad the stock motor can't be adapted because for ~ $100 , I'd pick up a spare .
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

google around maybe some surplus right angle gear head 12 volt motor from robotics places or surplus auto windo regulators.

Something like this but surplus LINK
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Probably not within the realm of what you're thinking, but I'd suggest that modifying how the windshield changes angle would be a good idea. The biggest contributor to the buffeting you get with the windshield raised is the more vertical angle. If there were a way to keep the angle of attack the same as at the lowest settings you'd be on to something.
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

google around maybe some surplus right angle gear head 12 volt motor from robotics places or surplus auto windo regulators.

Something like this but surplus LINK
That isn't the issue. The existing motor is easily available. The problem is that it is a right angle geared head. This works fine in its application but with what I designed I want a straight geared head not a right angle. That throws another angle into the mix that I need to work out. Plus the output of the right angle geared motor isn't right. It is a big gear (not the one that breaks) that I would have a hard time with converting it to the output that I need.

So what I am in search of is a 12V motor that isn't too terribly slow (geared down) but has enough torque to turn a sprocket that I have. This will connect to either a sprocket to drive a toothed timing style belt or chain (belt is cheaper option) to go over to the sides where there will be a acme threaded rod running parallel to each track. There will be a sprocket on each of these threaded rods with a bracket with bearings on the top and bottom. The motor drives the belt (or chain) this spins the Acme threaded rod, then there will be a part that works it's way up and down the threaded rod as it spins. To accommodate the curve of the track there will be a slotted bracket that will mount to existing bolts that are located where the windscreen mounts to the track assembly.

So by reusing the right angle motor I would have another angle to deal with. I might be able to move it to where it would work but it would be a hassle and I would still have to come up with a solution for the output shaft being not what I want as there would be no way to attach a sprocket to it.

Keep in mind that I am trying to make this kit as easy to install as possible. The brackets where the mounts for the Acme Threaded rod will mate up with existing mounting holes for the cables on the bottom and holes that are at the top of the mechanism. So no drilling needed there. Then with the motor, cables and drive mechanism out of the way the new motor would mount to roughly the same area. You will likely have to drill a couple holes to mount this but the rest will be just a matter of bolting things up to what is already there. The biggest challenge for a DIY shop will be to cut the old cables off the sliding brackets. They are crimped on with a brass cable lock. The cable is pretty thick so it might take a bolt cutter or a grinding wheel to get off. If someone doesn't have that I am sure they would know someone that has access to a bolt cutter or grinder. Heck it would take some time but I think a Dremel could cut it. Once the end is taken off the cable will fall free.

Using surplus power wind screen motors and cables were my best option until I came up with the threaded rod option. The problem with the cable system is that they are all designed to power one cable. That and it would take some work to modify it. So in order to get one system working you would need two motors. That doubled the cost and you would have to mess with a relay as the stock electrical system wouldn't be able to take two motors. Not to mention you would likely have Sync issues by going that route.
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Probably not within the realm of what you're thinking, but I'd suggest that modifying how the windshield changes angle would be a good idea. The biggest contributor to the buffeting you get with the windshield raised is the more vertical angle. If there were a way to keep the angle of attack the same as at the lowest settings you'd be on to something.
I have seen a lot of people talk about changing the angle of the shield. Since I am going to shoot for keeping the same track this won't change. You would have to increase the curve of the track or something to do what you are asking for. This would be impossible to do as you would likely destroy the track in the process. Not to mention that this changing angle part is one of the big challenges with this project.
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

SENN - Thanks for the response. I didn't catch you would still be using the old tracks - but it makes sense. If you find a good inexpensive source for small motors that will haul the mail, let me know. Thanks. BTW, one option I looked at for the ST1100 mod was modifying the power window motors in some vehicles. Now I'm beginning to think about maybe a hydraulic option.
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Put me in the "I'd be really glad you did it if I needed one" category. I've been wondering what you were doing with your windshield and find my self worrying about mine when I'm using it. I say "GO FOR IT!". Please, keep us updated!

Thanks.
Troy
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

I have seen a lot of people talk about changing the angle of the shield. Since I am going to shoot for keeping the same track this won't change. You would have to increase the curve of the track or something to do what you are asking for. This would be impossible to do as you would likely destroy the track in the process. Not to mention that this changing angle part is one of the big challenges with this project.

Actually, Dave what most people would want is a STRAIGHT track with no change in angle. One of the things the ST shield does is get more upright as it goes up. I think this contributes to the stress on the system AND the buffeting problem. Having said that, I think it would add to your cost to deal with that.
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Phill, have you seen the Windbender?

http://www.firecreekacc.com/windbender.htm

I used their hardware to make an adjustable shield for my 1100 (there should be some posts and pics somewhere on this forum, and on ST-Riders), and they have an electric option, too.

http://www.firecreekacc.com/electric.htm


edit: Here's my old thread: https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?42805-Adjustable-shield-for-ST1100&highlight=adjustable
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Actually, Dave what most people would want is a STRAIGHT track with no change in angle. One of the things the ST shield does is get more upright as it goes up. I think this contributes to the stress on the system AND the buffeting problem. Having said that, I think it would add to your cost to deal with that.
Yep Mark. You are right, it would add to the cost.

We are going to go over all this on Sat. I want to run some things by Rich but we were chatting on the phone last night and I mentioned what I was thinking. He has experience in robotics so that will be a help. I was looking for 90 degree gearboxes and he pointed out that it could be belt driven. I thought about it for a second and realized that would simplify things a lot. Basically all I am doing with this design is building a linear actuator that will fit the application. The linear actuator was always my first idea but the size of the unit in order to get the full range of motion was prohibitive. So we would have to sacrifice the upper or lower limit. I didn't want to give up either. The stronger mechanical linkage is the key. Really the only thing that can go wrong on the belt drive system is to break a belt or have it slip. It wouldn't be hard to realign and could most likely be done with only removing the black plastic below the windscreen which is mostly push pins. If a belt were to break this is going to be a part that is pretty standard lists for about $15. Heck of a lot better deal than $370. All the other components I am looking at are going to be ball bearings and metal sprockets. I am not going to mess with anything plastic.
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

I might be interested in one.I am putting a 03 back together and it does not have electric winshield,so i guess i would need the standard rails and add This motor/belt?
Or I may be looking at Windbender
I will keep an Eye on this post.

03_8.JPG
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

I might be interested in one.I am putting a 03 back together and it does not have electric winshield,so i guess i would need the standard rails and add This motor/belt?
Or I may be looking at Windbender
I will keep an Eye on this post.

03_8.JPG
Yeah, if this is a non-ABS that hasn't had the retrofit kit it won't help much. Unless you can find someone here that has a bad one laying around to get the tracks and limit switches. You will then need to add some relays and the left switch pod from a 03 ABS or 04+. There are a few people that have done the retrofit so there are people that can help with what you would need.
 

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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Dave,
On Saturday we should take 30 minutes, and I should show you my shop......
Rich
 
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Re: Gauging Interest: Replacement Drive System for ST1300 Windscreen Motor/gear/cable

Dave,
On Saturday we should take 30 minutes, and I should show you my shop......
Rich
Yes, I want to run a few things by you when we have your bike apart to do the HIDs. You have more exp than me in this area. The major concerns I have at this point shouldn't be that big of a deal. The biggest one is gear ratios and how to tension the timing belt as they are only available in certain sizes. This shouldn't be a major issue, just something to overcome. You may have some ideas as of where to source some things like motors as well. I have been checking a couple vendors and found a couple cheap options on ebay but question the power output of the motor.
 
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