Another high speed wooble accident

Marshal_Mercer

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Marshal: I will be in Port Orchard, WA starting on July 4 for a week. I can get back on the bike when I return (doctor suggested I stay off it for a month, but that was another post - I will learn how to stop and put my RIGHT foot down first!).
I never ride fast enought to need the Penske shock you have, but I would love to head off to Julian or Mt. Palomar again!
Julian (yum!) or Palomar: either is good. Those, or Mt. Baldy Village, via the Baldy Mountain Road route. Or Angeles Crest Highway. Or....!

I'll be in Yelm, Washington, visiting my son and his family while you are in Port Orchard. It's a shame that we can't meet there for a ride. I'm riding the Coast route until Eugene, OR. It should be fun. I really like Gig Harbor, BTW.

Try the shield trick if you think of it. It works. A bonus is the 3-5 MPG better fuel economy you get.

Marshal
 
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Anyone know of another ST1300 web site in which the non-expert admins don't bash your bike and don't insult you when you disagree?


First off let me say that any opinion and experience I have is purely mine and I am not voicing my experience in any official capacity as an admin of this great forum. I want to say that up front because there are some that might be a little shocked by my words but I hope you'll read them accurately and therefore understand.

The Honda ST1300 has many fine attributes and to my eyes is a very good looking bike but I will never ever own another in its current design. I have owned many different bikes over the years and no other ever gave me the, quite frankly downright scary, at times, feelings of vagueness and complete unpredictability the ST1300 did.

Someone has already stated that the weave, the one that can easily kill you is nothing like the instability felt from the wake of trucks etc. and I can tell you first hand that it's not. They are nowhere near the same thing. So when you read about the weave, please don't think you know what it is if all you've felt is some turbulence from other vehicles.

Yes, all motorcycles will weave to some extent if they're not loaded correctly or the tire pressures aren't right etc etc. But no other bike I'm aware of will send you into a life threatening situation if it isn't set up 100% accurately for you - especially when, it's been proven time and time again that while set up might affect the point at which the ST1300 will weave it will absolutely not guarantee it won't happen. It never ceases to amaze me when this subject comes up how many 'experts' start to post about suspension set up, saddlebag loading, tire pressures etc. and how many then pipe up with I've had mine to 175mph and it's rock solid. You're all missing the point.

The life threatening weave the ST1300 can put you into can occur at any time, any place, any settings, any tire pressures with NO warning. It can happen one up, two up, screen up or down, tires right, over or under inflated, shock pre-load wound up or down, top box on or off or any other combination you can imagine. There is no logic to it. You can ride a section of road at 130mph one day and have no issue and ride the exact same section the next with the same configuration the next day at only 70mph and experience a weave. If you've never experienced one then you're lucky... but lucky for what? Who knows? Your build, your posture, your set up? Something they got right or wrong when they built your bike? NO ONE KNOWS or at least the one's who do are not telling us.

And THAT, the unpredictability and inexplicity of it are THE PROBLEM. You might not have experienced the weave, but you cannot deny it exists because I have and I know others who have. Honda are well aware of it but refuse completely to admit it or provide any explanation because they couldn't handle the law suit and so rather they are happy for you to sit on a time bomb that could one day kill you.

So, should you all run out and sell your ST1300's? I don't think so. It's a fine bike in many other respects and if you've never experienced a weave the law of averages says you probably never will. Just don't belittle it, think you can explain it or bury your head in the sand... none of these will do any good either and you cannot, no matter how good you think you are, explain it.

It's real and very frightening.

By the way, experiences from those on ST1100's are pointless in this subject... the 1100 didn't weave but then it also doesn't have the aggressive rake of the 1300.

I love the community here on ST-Owners because despite that being my experience of the ST1300 as many longer term members are aware, they're still happy to have this somewhat odd Brit as an admin. If however, anyone feels I've overstepped the mark or should not be welcome here because I believe the ST1300 is the most dangerous bike on the roads today then I'll hand my resignation into Joe. Joe, you know my experience and feelings on this so of course, feel free to pull this post if you prefer.

I don't want to scare anyone and I don't in any way want to damage this great community, but please, please stop thinking this problem doesn't exist or that you know the cure... it does and you don't - I tried them all.

Regards,
 
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Burger

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Anyone know of another ST1300 web site in which the non-expert admins don't bash your bike and don't insult you when you disagree?
I didn't claim to be an expert in anything and I don't believe I insulted anyone but obviously I apologise if you feel insulted. What I posted, as I quite clearly stated, are my experience and opinion of the ST1300 - does that make me a bad person or this a bad forum? My 'admin' support of this forum is totally impartial and irrespective of my experience of a particular model of motorcycle.

I didn't start this thread and surely I am allowed to post my experiences and opinion as a member?

Regards,
 

Marshal_Mercer

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<snip>
The life threatening weave the ST1300 can put you into can occur at any time, any place, any settings, any tire pressures with NO warning. It can happen one up, two up, screen up or down, tires right, over or under inflated, shock pre-load wound up or down, top box on or off or any other combination you can imagine. There is no logic to it.
<snip>
Dave (Burger):

I disagree. Everything has logic to it. We may fail to see the logic, but it is there.

It is also entirely possible that in some instances the ST1300 is very stable, and at others it is not. Thousands of ST riders have enjoyed their rides without substantial incident. A very few have experienced hazards, at least as recounted in this forum and others. Neither case suggests that this will always be so, but I doubt that there is a general need for alarm.

Please disregard the next comment if you like. There seems to be more frustration in your responses of late than I recall seeing before. It is almost as though you are spoiling for a fight. I am not sure what is the problem, and perhaps I am wrong even suggesting that a problem exists. I'd like to see --and again read-- what the "old" Burger has to add to discussions. Just a thought from a fellow rider.

How's your FJR running-in? I hope that you enjoy it as much as I enjoy my ST.

Cheers,

Marshal
 
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sherob

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Anyone know of another ST1300 web site in which the non-expert admins don't bash your bike and don't insult you when you disagree?
I think Burgers views on this subject are very valuable. All of the problems associated and reported so far on this subject have been from overseas, well, TX too :)

As far as I can see, he didn't insult anyone on here, nor did he "bash" the ST... just reported his views and opinions... and posted a few links to back up those views and opinions.

Now... bashing, I've seen a TON of HD bashing... that's bashing.
 
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I didn't claim to be an expert in anything and I don't believe I insulted anyone but obviously I apologise if you feel insulted. What I posted, as I quite clearly stated, are my experience and opinion of the ST1300 - does that make me a bad person or this a bad forum? My 'admin' support of this forum is totally impartial and irrespective of my experience of a particular model of motorcycle.

I didn't start this thread and surely I am allowed to post my experiences and opinion as a member?

Regards,
All last year, those who bought new 07 FJR's suffered with the "altitude sickness" problem.

http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=23179

Not simply a rideability issue, the engine bogged or surged. People I know of sold their bikes because of their frustrations and safety concerns. Many 07 owners lost a season of riding fighting to convince Yamaha of the problem.

At the end of the season it was revealed that Yamaha cut cost by eliminating FI sensors and forgot to re-program the ECM. Recall. New ECM's for everyone, after snow sets in.

What I don't find anywhere on this site is your 5 page dissertation about this safety issue. So why focus on the bike WE like?
 

dduelin

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Ride magazine (published in England) loaded up a Pan European with sensors to measure side to side aerodynamic forces and movement and after some experimentation were able to make the Pan weave at will without maladjusting the suspension or underinflating the tires.

.
It was Bike Magazine wasn't it? They had to take the bike to 110, 120, or 130 mph to record the weave and even then it was not present during all configurations of loading and suspension adjustment. If all production bikes capable of these speeds were tested with the same methodology would be many other bikes to exhibit some weave? Bike reported in this month's issue the C-14 exhibits a weave over 140 mph.
 

sherob

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All last year, those who bought new 07 FJR's suffered with the "altitude sickness" problem.

http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=23179

Not simply a rideability issue, the engine bogged or surged. People I know of sold their bikes because of their frustrations and safety concerns. Many 07 owners lost a season of riding fighting to convince Yamaha of the problem.

At the end of the season it was revealed that Yamaha cut cost by eliminating FI sensors and forgot to re-program the ECM. Recall. New ECM's for everyone, after snow sets in.

What I don't find anywhere on this site is your 5 page dissertation about this safety issue. So why focus on the bike WE like?
Hold on!

This is not a FJR site! He did not start this thread... but put in his view and opinion, just like you. He is not attacking you, but you are attacking him. He is not attacking the ST, but you are attacking the FJR.

The weeve/wobble is a known concern and issue... period!

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28908&highlight=st1300

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6600897.stm

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/BikesQuads/BikingNews/0,,1369-1962-1964_2336096,00.html
 

Burger

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Dave (Burger):

I disagree. Everything has logic to it. We may fail to see the logic, but it is there.
Hi Marshal,

I do agree with you. The point I wanted to get across though is that the cure if it is not an inherent design fault and therefore can be cured, from my own personal experience and trials is not to wind the pre-load all the way up, make sure your tires are at the right pressures, make sure the bikes loaded properly, don't fit a top box, don't overweight it, move the screen up or down etc etc. or any combination of these.

It is also entirely possible that in some instances the ST1300 is very stable, and at others it is not. Thousands of ST riders have enjoyed their rides without substantial incident. A very few have experienced hazards, at least as recounted in this forum and others. Neither case suggests that this will always be so, but I doubt that there is a general need for alarm.
And again I agree which is the whole reason I absolutely am not suggesting everyone rushes out and sells their ST's. I fully accept the majority of riders have experienced no issues and I would dearly love to have been one of them. I liked my ST for many reasons but it's capacity to induce a weave for no apparent reason was not one of them.

Please disregard the next comment if you like. There seems to be more frustration in your responses of late than I recall seeing before. It is almost as though you are spoiling for a fight. I am not sure what is the problem, and perhaps I am wrong even suggesting that a problem exists. I'd like to see --and again read-- what the "old" Burger has to add to discussions. Just a thought from a fellow rider.
I won't disregard any comment and appreciate any and all that can help make me a better person. I'm sure it doesn't help that my life right now and for some time has been relentless work. I certainly don't want to come across aggressively because I'm probably the least aggressive person you could ever meet in reality. I am though frustrated by this whole weave issue and the debate but moreso the denial and simple fixes that always pursues when someone has experienced it or more seriously had an accident because of it. I'm sorry if my frustration really showed in my post but I wanted to make that point and for there to be no ambiguity about it.

There is no reason for anyone to get upset reading it because at the end of the day it really is just my experience and opinion. People can take it or leave it I guess just as they can anyone elses opinion in any other thread.

How's your FJR running-in? I hope that you enjoy it as much as I enjoy my ST.

Cheers,

Marshal
My FJR's is a great bike for me thank you and I am sure I am enjoying it every bit as much as you, and the vast majority here, are enjoying their ST's.

I hope everyone continues to enjoy their bikes.

Regards,
 

Burger

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...At the end of the season it was revealed that Yamaha cut cost by eliminating FI sensors and forgot to re-program the ECM. Recall. New ECM's for everyone...
The point being though, no matter how irrelevant to this thread topic, that Yamaha admitted there was a problem and put it right - eventually.

How many people have to be killed or seriously injured on ST1300's for no apparent reason before Honda will even attempt to explain it? Or even admit they can't explain it because of the rarity of it. Even advice on what a rider could do differently would be more welcome than nothing. Surely?

Regards,
 
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Read all the posts on advrider. Couple of guys claim your virtually guaranteed a quick and certain death on an ST. I agree with a couple of posters here, it's there, you just need to know where and how to deal with it.
 
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Thanks Burger (Dave)

LIke I said in my post a long time ways back, I am sure that something is amiss, just never seem to get first hand experience. Until now. Thank you for that.

I have no idea what the problem is (Rake/Trail/Side Load?). I would sincerely hope that Honda not only knows, but has taken steps toward solving. I had some sort of hope that the Pan problems were limited to the Police model and leave the rest of us alone. Silly me.

I've had a couple of bikes in my career that had a serious "wobble" inherent in the design. Both were a long time ago when I assumed all MCs did that if you rode them fast enough. Which may have been correct, the tires and steering head bearings were pretty grim:) Not to mention tires/wheels that had to be tuned...The aforementioned Kaw triple (750) would do the boogaloo at about 90. Going through it either way was was an exciting thing.
 

Blrfl

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I'm going to put on my moderator wannabe (no, not really) hat for a second and say something:

Everybody sit down, shut up and eat some pie. :coolit:

First, thank you, Dave, for posting the article from Ride. I hadn't seen it, and it is the closest thing to scientific testing I've seen on the subject. Now give yourself a spanking for violating the magazine's copyright. :spank1:

The point being though, no matter how irrelevant to this thread topic, that Yamaha admitted there was a problem and put it right - eventually.
That's a key point. Admission of a problem is a very, very big deal if you're Japanese, and I hear it's worse when you're a company. Nikon had the same problem with the D1 for many years with a nasty magenta cast on skin tones, and the way they solved the problem was to come out with a new model. Unfortunately, I suspect we're going to have to wait for the ST1400 or whatever's next.


Here's some constructive thinking:

Looking at my 1300 and some pictures of the 1100, and one of the things that strikes me about them is the differences in the fairing shapes and how much opportunity there is on the 1100 for air to flow through the fairing, not just around it.

The 1300's fairing pretty much forces the air to go into the inner lower cowl and radiator or around the side, where a bunch of it runs right into the tipover wing and the lump in the fairing the supports it. The half-baked theory I'm working on here is that something is creating lift that unloads the front suspension enough that any slight imbalance in pressure on the bars causes the front wheel to turn out just a bit and that changes the wind situation just enough to re-load the suspension. Alternately, the holes in the inner lower cowl might be directing wind someplace strange inside the fairing.

Here's some video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DXr5pSVoZs

Disregard the fact that this guy was riding like a complete squid, fast forward to about 0:54 and watch the front wheel carefully. Just as it catches traction, it looks to be cocked just a bit to the right, and the rider doesn't look like he's got his weight fully placed on the right peg.

I'd like to see the Ride study repeated with something in place to measure the distance between the triple tree and the fender. Ideally, I'd like to see them re-run their first batch of experiments and then do each of the following modifications:

  • Vent or remove the inner cowls, but put something in place to make sure the fairing maintains it shape.
  • Remove the tipover bars, wings and covers and plug the hole they leave.
  • Remove all traces of the tipover wings, modifying the middle cowls to eliminate the bump-out and providing a smooth, curved surface.

Thoughts? Comments? Feel free to tell me I'm nuts; this was all pretty much stream-of-consciousness.

And for God's sake, go have some pie. :pie1: :pie1:

--Mark
 
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It was Bike Magazine wasn't it? They had to take the bike to 110, 120, or 130 mph to record the weave and even then it was not present during all configurations of loading and suspension adjustment. If all production bikes capable of these speeds were tested with the same methodology would be many other bikes to exhibit some weave? Bike reported in this month's issue the C-14 exhibits a weave over 140 mph.
No, it was Ride magazine where I read the article, but I think they are published by the same company and the article may have appeared in both magazines.

I regularly ride over 100 mph in different configurations--with and without a pillion and top box. Please read my earlier post, I said its happened to me once in 16K miles. I also stated that I don't think the bike is unsafe because it gently tells you its you've reached an unstable condition by weaving. If you let off the gas it stops. If you ignore it, you will quickly end up with a tank slapper.


As to other bikes, my Blackbird is perfectly stable up to about 165 when it also begins to weave. It will do it every time and in all conditons so its predictable. The ST surprised me by starting to weave at a speed and loading contiton I had ridden in many times before. The only variable was the wind direction. That's the killer, the unpredictability of the phenomonon.
 

Marshal_Mercer

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Dave ("old" Burger):

I agree with your agreeing. :D

For what it's worth, I'm also pretty sure that the "people in the know", know why some STs behave as they do. I have seen several times in print, statements that suggest that 'Honda knows about [the handling problem], but refuses to acknowledge it.' I believe that, that particular comment was made by a nationally-recognized-brand, tire distributor.

Personally, I'd like to stick a ST into a wind tunnel to see if airflow is causing problems. I can imagine the front end being lifted, despite the inverted airfoil "tip-over" wings, when the bike's front to rear ride height bias is upset.

Some years ago I did some research into the loading and unloading with air, the bottom margin of the ST's windscreen. I could get the screen to oscillate laterally by placing a fan at about a 45 degree angle to the screen's horizontal centerline. When I moved the screen so that the bottom edge was slightly farther forward from the fairing, the oscillation stopped. I found that moving the screen to its uppermost mounting position was pretty close to accomplishing the same thing. Then again, I only had a sample of 1.

Marshal

Hi Marshal,

I do agree with you. The point I wanted to get across though is that the cure if it is not an inherent design fault and therefore can be cured, from my own personal experience and trials is not to wind the pre-load all the way up, make sure your tires are at the right pressures, make sure the bikes loaded properly, don't fit a top box, don't overweight it, move the screen up or down etc etc. or any combination of these.



And again I agree which is the whole reason I absolutely am not suggesting everyone rushes out and sells their ST's. I fully accept the majority of riders have experienced no issues and I would dearly love to have been one of them. I liked my ST for many reasons but it's capacity to induce a weave for no apparent reason was not one of them.



I won't disregard any comment and appreciate any and all that can help make me a better person. I'm sure it doesn't help that my life right now and for some time has been relentless work. I certainly don't want to come across aggressively because I'm probably the least aggressive person you could ever meet in reality. I am though frustrated by this whole weave issue and the debate but moreso the denial and simple fixes that always pursues when someone has experienced it or more seriously had an accident because of it. I'm sorry if my frustration really showed in my post but I wanted to make that point and for there to be no ambiguity about it.

There is no reason for anyone to get upset reading it because at the end of the day it really is just my experience and opinion. People can take it or leave it I guess just as they can anyone elses opinion in any other thread.



My FJR's is a great bike for me thank you and I am sure I am enjoying it every bit as much as you, and the vast majority here, are enjoying their ST's.

I hope everyone continues to enjoy their bikes.

Regards,
 
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The point being though, no matter how irrelevant to this thread topic, that Yamaha admitted there was a problem and put it right - eventually.

How many people have to be killed or seriously injured on ST1300's for no apparent reason before Honda will even attempt to explain it? Or even admit they can't explain it because of the rarity of it. Even advice on what a rider could do differently would be more welcome than nothing. Surely?

Regards,
If you look here:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/complaintsearch.cfm

You will find 37 complaints filed with the NHTSA for the 2007 FJR.

This is what caused Yamaha to "admit" they had a problem. Apply whatever spin you want, it is just your spin and it don't mean anything. Guys I know kept bringing the bikes back to the shop and getting shrugs from the regional reps.

The FJR riders that crashed and died did not fill out a complaint.

Now to your point. I am shocked at the number of riders who are ignorant of safety related matters. They have no idea how much weight they carry, how much weight is in the saddle bags or top case, how or why to adjust their suspension, whether or not their suspension is properly set up or even capable of carrying the load, what affect that huge aftermarket screen or fender extender has on the aerodynamics, or the effect the mismatched, under inflated, non-fitment tires, filled with a gallon of no-leak juice have on handling. At high speeds, even a radio antenna and bracket could have some effect on stability.

Given all the mods we "expert" owners make, the loads we carry, and the high speeds we apparently play around at, it is surprising to me that there are not many more accidents and injuries.
 
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Imrubicon

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Oh my gosh I will sell mine right away!!!!!!!


NOT lets face it most dont seem to have this issue and so it must be something other than a stock issue .
IE weight airflow something .
I cruise 8 an 90 on the interstate all the time just to keep up or a little ahead of traffic. No wobbles no weave .
Topped it around 140 + per GPS and it was rock steady ( steady a lot morte then me ) It would be nice to know if it was something special done or not done but that info seems to always be lacking ..
I will still ride at the speed I think is safe for that time and not worry about it .
JMHO
 

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...Now give yourself a spanking for violating the magazine's copyright. :spank1:
Hi Mark,

Actually it was permission pending (in other words I'd asked) so yes, a bit naughty of me to post.

They've been removed for now but I'll put them back when/if I get their permission to reproduce here.

Thanks for 'moderating' me :D

Regards,
 

Burger

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OK... here we go...

My email to RIDE magazine...

Hi there.

In your October 2007 issue you did an article on the Pan European weave. I am an admin of a large ST1300 owners forum (www.st-owners.com) and I would like your permission to reproduce the article on that forum please. There's often much debate about this ST1300 weave and your article was the most scientific approach to it yet.

Could I please reproduce it there? I would scan it and post it as pictures by the way so it would remain unchanged and be the full pages including your identity etc.

Many thanks,


Their reply...

Hello Dave

Thanks for your email. That's fine. We're very happy for owners forums to reproduce RiDE stuff, so long as there's some acknowledgement of where it's come from and so long as no-one's making any money from it, so clearly no problems in this case.

Best

Colin Overland
editor


So, for anyone who missed it... reproduced, with permission from RIDE magazine October 2007...

weave01.jpg weave02.jpg weave03.jpg weave04.jpg weave05.jpg

Regards,
 
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