ABS V NON ABS

[sennister]

I don't think this is true. Maybe others could chime in with their thoughts but this is what I mean:

When a bike is on the sides of the tires (cornering, swerving) the force is sideways, not front to back. ABS does not sense the tires sliding out from under you, when going sideways, because the tire is still turning....

It's my opinion anyway, that there's a misconception, or misunderstanding with ABS and bikes. It's not the same as ABS with a car... because you don't have to balance a car (ie, you don't ride on the sides of the tires of a car)...

just my .03 anyway (inflation )

Well maybe but I know on my 1300 I had to break really hard once, the ABS kicked in while leaned over in a corner to avoid hitting a deer.

 

[Blrfl]

When a bike is on the sides of the tires (cornering, swerving) the force is sideways, not front to back. ABS does not sense the tires sliding out from under you, when going sideways, because the tire is still turning....

The force isn't all lateral, because the bike is still moving forward. If whatever's touching the road has lost traction, the ABS may well sense a difference in wheel speed and modulate the brakes. Obviously, it won't stop a slide sideways, but it may restore enough traction to regain control over the bike if you're not too far over the edge. (I'd have to think about that some. This close to closing before a holiday, it's hard to think technical thoughts not involving turkey and pie.)

It's not the same as ABS with a car... because you don't have to balance a car (ie, you don't ride on the sides of the tires of a car)...

If the wheels are turning above a certain speed, you don't really have to balance a bike, either. When you're leaned over at a constant angle, the gravitational forces making the bike want to flop over are canceled out by the forces trying to keep the bike upright. One of the reasons I think ABS is effective on two wheels is that it keeps them turning. Lock the wheels and the upward forces go right out the window, allowing gravity to win.

--Mark

 

[wjbertrand]

Another thing to think about is that a lot of riders with non-ABS brakes aren't as close to the threshold of lock-up as they think they are, particularly at the front, when making a hard stop. In side by side comparisons of similar models with and without ABS, it can be surprising how much additional braking is available before the the ABS kicks in compared to where you thought the limit was without ABS. I'd wager that due to caution (fear?), many riders have never explored the last 10-12% of available braking traction. ABS will let you explore this without consequence and I'd argue that you can take that experience with you to other bikes, ABS equipped or not.

 

[dduelin]

To Post #26...........ABS on most bikes does not account for centripedal forces in a turn. I think BMW's most sophisticated system on the 1000RR does but not on the other models. On conventional ABS equipped bikes if you brake too much when leaned over and close to using all available traction points the front tire tucks or washes out while spinning at 100% of road speed, well before ABS can detect a difference between wheel speeds.

 

[sennister]

Another thing to think about is that a lot of riders with non-ABS brakes aren't as close to the threshold of lock-up as they think they are, particularly at the front, when making a hard stop. In side by side comparisons of similar models with and without ABS, it can be surprising how much additional braking is available before the the ABS kicks in compared to where you thought the limit was without ABS. I'd wager that due to caution (fear?), many riders have never explored the last 10-12% of available braking traction. ABS will let you explore this without consequence and I'd argue that you can take that experience with you to other bikes, ABS equipped or not.

I would agree with that. It is basically why I would only brake my non ABS 1100 with 2 fingers where I will grab a handful with the 1300ABS

 

[dduelin]

I would agree with that. It is basically why I would only brake my non ABS 1100 with 2 fingers where I will grab a handful with the 1300ABS

Humans do best training in a repetitive manner where in an emergency muscle memory kicks in because of repetitive practice of one motion or series of motions. In an emergency which bike does your muscle memory think it is riding? The two finger bike or the handful of brake bike?

This is not meant to pick on you or put you in an awkward moment. It is relevant to all of us that own or ride more than one motorcycle. I have to brake in the same manner each and every time if I want to train myself to brake the same way (initial hand lever squeeze, wait for weight transfer, followed by increasing pressure on both front and rear brakes) in a panic stop.

 

[sennister]

Humans do best training in a repetitive manner where in an emergency muscle memory kicks in because of repetitive practice of one motion or series of motions. In an emergency which bike does your muscle memory think it is riding? The two finger bike or the handful of brake bike?

This is not meant to pick on you or put you in an awkward moment. It is relevant to all of us that own or ride more than one motorcycle. I have to brake in the same manner each and every time if I want to train myself to brake the same way (initial hand lever squeeze, wait for weight transfer, followed by increasing pressure on both front and rear brakes) in a panic stop.

Well this is easy to answer. This year spring I bought the 1300 ABS. I have owned the 1100 for 7 years. I kept the 1100 to transition some things to the 1300 and in case I didn't like the 1300. This season I put a touch over 12,000 miles on the 1300 and a touch over 300 miles on the 1100. The 1100 is going up for sale in the spring. So I don't have to worry about 2 fingers or all of them

Really though, I would agree that you should ride them all the same way. I know what you are saying about muscle memory. For me though, if I get a second bike after the 1100 is gone, it would most likely be a dual sport but in all honesty that most likely won't happen. This is because I would want a BMW 1200GS. Sorry they are out of my price range. Besides they have ABS. So no worries unless I turned it off. What you say about muscle memory is right. But for applying brakes and waiting for weight to transfer forward then applying more force is fine for the track and expected situations. I still say that when adrenalin kicks in you may be in for a surprise. There are lots of documented cases where a police officer in a stressful situation has had their gun just go off. Why, well a big part of it is that the muscle memory training that they do all the time trains them to hold their gun with the finger on the trigger. Add a little adrenalin to the situation and when he/she thinks the finger is resting on the trigger in actuality the trigger on that heavy pull double action pistol is pulled back to or near the breaking point.

Same can go for a trigger on the brake lever. It may feel like you are lightly squeezing to allow weight to transfer forward but I will be willing to bet you are really squeezing a lot harder than you think you are if it truly is a surprise and stressful situation.

 

[FJRHank]

Humans do best training in a repetitive manner where in an emergency muscle memory kicks in because of repetitive practice of one motion or series of motions. In an emergency which bike does your muscle memory think it is riding? The two finger bike or the handful of brake bike?

This is not meant to pick on you or put you in an awkward moment. It is relevant to all of us that own or ride more than one motorcycle. I have to brake in the same manner each and every time if I want to train myself to brake the same way (initial hand lever squeeze, wait for weight transfer, followed by increasing pressure on both front and rear brakes) in a panic stop.

(And I'd say again Senn, not pointing a finger, simply a discussion for *everyone* to potentially learn something from...)

What Dave points out above is *exactly* the reason the MSF teaches you to use All Four Fingers when braking... basically, there may be times when you just don't want to end up saying "oops, I should have been squeezing as hard as I could have".

It really does need to be a habit, muscle memory, to use both brakes and all four fingers, because that's your full stopping power.

Of course there can be some odd exceptions... in a parking lot, and the like. But any kind of traffic and speed, I go by what the MSF says, because I'm a rider coach and because it's sound reasoning.

 

[sennister]

(And I'd say again Senn, not pointing a finger, simply a discussion for *everyone* to potentially learn something from...)

What Dave points out above is *exactly* the reason the MSF teaches you to use All Four Fingers when braking... basically, there may be times when you just don't want to end up saying "oops, I should have been squeezing as hard as I could have".

It really does need to be a habit, muscle memory, to use both brakes and all four fingers, because that's your full stopping power.

Of course there can be some odd exceptions... in a parking lot, and the like. But any kind of traffic and speed, I go by what the MSF says, because I'm a rider coach and because it's sound reasoning.

Wow everyone is picking on me today :

See those pesky MSF instructors have been getting to me. This season I have really been trying to break the 2 finger habit I have from my dirt bike days. :

 

[FJRHank]

Wow everyone is picking on me today :

See those pesky MSF instructors have been getting to me. This season I have really been trying to break the 2 finger habit I have from my dirt bike days. :

hehehehe I hear ya! you have no idea what some msf instructors have to go through with some of the students... breaking bad habits...

Imagine a couple or Rider Coaches watching someone go around one of the corners and yelling... at the top of their lungs... TURN YER HEAD!! TURN YER HEAD!! TURN YER HEAD!!

about a thousand times a class

It really is true that brand new bike riders often do better then those that have ridden for decades.

Just follow the reasoning... if you had 2 brake pedals in your car, one did half the job the other did... which one would you use and when? That's the point, the definition of emergency braking is ... you don't know when it's going to happen

On your bike, always be ready to use all of it's braking power... no excuses.

 

[Da Ace]

I experienced two different scenarios that explain why I think the ABS and split breaking systems should be standard for most bikers:
The first was when I was running in my number one ST, on the day I purchased her (Yes I did the 1000miles required on the first day of purchase), I was in a town and being quiet tired my attention wasn't 100% on the road.
A driver of a cage puled out of a parking bay and immediately proceeded to do a U- turn in front of me.
Then he saw me and ...STOPPED!!!
When I saw him I realised in a millisecond that I was going too fast and would be parked in his doors or sitting on his lap...
This all happened as I applied as much pressure as I could (flight or fright reaction) to the break leaver and pedal...!
I was expecting to bend my new bikes forks and be carted off to the closest hospital....BUT NO!!! The brakes worked better than I could ever have imagined.
Instead of trying to rip the car drivers head off for pulling such a stunt, I found myself laughing into my helmet...WOW!

The second instant was as follows:
I have ridden many bikes over many years, but never have I felt more convinced that the split breaking and ABS on the ST work well, than after the evening I went around a corner on a mountain pass at a speed far too high for the situation.
Leaned over and panicking that I was going to go over the edge as the road just kept tightening up, I did the only thing I could...
I applied the breaks. She never high-sided or low-sided...but slowed down in a controlled manner that made me believe that I may never experience a better braking system ever...

Finally in the wet I go passed everyone when I come towards the Stop signs or traffic lights, as my stopping distance is way shorter than theirs...:grin::grin::grin:
Totally makes me either look good... or mad...:grin:

PS Been riding for a couple of years now....(+-40 or So)

 

[wjbertrand]

I admit that I do the two-fingered brake thing, as it's the only way I know to control both the throttle and the brake simultaneously as you would be taught in a track school. I found there's a disadvantage to this technique for street braking though.

Depending on the bike, it's level of maintenance and the adjustment of the brake lever, you can catch your remaining fingers behind the lever. Not only does that hurt, it can limit brake application. This actually happened to me on a press bike that had really mushy front brakes and the lever adjusted as close to the grip as it would go. Luckily I had enough space to let off the brakes and reposition my hand on the lever. I think that might be one reason that the MSF teaches the full-hand approach.