analogue vs digital radio? (how to communicate in a modern world...)

[ST1100Y]

The setup:
ST1100: fully wired bike powered intercom, Kenwood TK3101 radio...
NT700: Kenwood TK3101 radio on SENA SR10 (both bike powered) and SENA ER5 helmet headset...

The situation:
In "dry dock" (down the alley at home) all works nice, ST to NT, NT to ST, even with a 3rd handheld Kenwood all can talk to each other...
It also works fine (> 1 mile) in abandoned areas like on top of a mountain pass bare of any human settlement... clear, crystal voice as if she's standing right beside me...
But once we come even near any inhabited structure all goes berserk... static, crackle, electric buzz... neither of us can get trough...
+15 years ago those analogue Kenwood radios worked exceptionally well as bike to bike communication... but in the past 2 decades technology has changed, like WiFi becoming omnipresent...

Can't ID if the current problems origin from power lines, residential WiFi equipment, radio relay/GSM cells, etc... disturbing the analogue radio or if it's just/only the BT-link on the NT700 influenced/failing by named sources?

Might upgrade to digital Kenwood radios be an/the improvement?

 

[red one]

Funny you should post this. As a young boy I was facinated that I could receive long distance radio stations on the AM band on my radio's. Use to pick up stations in NY, NJ, CO, NO, Nashville TN ( Grand old Opry) etc crystal clear at night. Today you can get them but so much static and fading its nearly impossible to hear. Imho wifi or radio frequency energy has increased by thousands of percent. Everything now is label as "smart" so all homes and appliances are wifi powered. Today communications are not by land lines anymore and well its just about everywhere and you cannot get away from it. Now all these smart powered devices need cell towers to provide and route the signals to all these devices so cell towers have increased by a hundred fold and will have even more when the new 5G networks are completed. And yes power lines and electric motors all have an effect as they produce electro magnetic energy fields around them. Welcome to the new modern world.

 

[Joeywhat]

Do you know what frequency they use? It's very possible that they are using old frequency designations that have since been given to different devices... So plenty of interference for you when you're by said devices.

 

[ad.hom]

The TK3101 is a PMR 446 isn't it?

Have you setup a QT tone? Page 8 (or 9) of the manual (depending on the version of the manual). That should rule out urban interference.

 

[Uncle Phil]

I just took the 'plunge' and went with the SENA 20S EVO (non-mesh) and the SENA 30K (mesh).
The mesh business is good when there is a bigger group because it is a no-brainer connect.
For just two riders, the 20s would work just fine once they are 'connected'.
The problem is you probably won't have the range that the KENWOODS have.
But other than that, they work very well and battery life on the SENA 20S EVOs are great.

 

[CYYJ]

Hi Martin:

I believe that the Kenwood TK3101 transceivers operate in the frequency range 462.5625 to 462.7250 MHz. This is referred to (in North America) as the Family Radio Service band. It is interesting to note that the Wikipedia article I just cited states that this band was never authorized for use in Europe... but I digress.

In Canada, in recent years, that same range of frequencies has been authorized for use by dog tracking devices, pet containment units, and intercom systems, in addition to two-way voice communication. It is possible that those frequencies may be used for similar uses in Europe, hence your interference.

The manual for the Kenwood TK3101 states that the transceivers have a "Quiet Talk" feature. This enables you to set one of 38 different signaling codes on 2 or more transceivers, and when this is done, the transceivers will only break squelch when they receive a signal from another transceiver that has the same signaling code. By default, out of the box, the signaling code is set to '00', which turns the signaling and squelch break feature off.

If you have not already done so, you might want to consider setting both of your transceivers to the same signaling code (other than '00') and see if that reduces interference in urban areas.

I have attached the manual for the transceiver, just in case you do not have a copy.

Michael

 

[spiderman302]

Since you are in the EU, I am not sure what frequency range your radio is set to. 446 or 462 or 4??
Do you have interference on all channels? The kenwoods are very good radios and they should not be affected by wifi, powerline, cell phones, or out of band interference. It is most likely other users on the same channel that you are using.

Switching to different tones or just going digital will not help if there are strong signals on the channels.

A cool tool to see what is going on is a RTL-SDR USB dongle. It will give you a spectrum display of all the channels in your area to help you decide which radio to go to - vhf vs uhf. Look for a ham radio club in your area, they should have someone who could help you. Or get a ham license, the UHF ham channels are not very busy.

 

[ST1100Y]

... wifi or radio frequency energy has increased by thousands of percent. Everything now is label as "smart" so all homes and appliances are wifi powered...

Tell me about it... when moving into the building complex the fob for the doors to the sub-level garage worked from like 50~60 yards away, these days I'm happy if I can get the rolling gates to open from like 3 feet away...

The problem is you probably won't have the range that the KENWOODS have.

Range is the issue there, BT works in direct view on like 200 meters, and nadda if one partner is around a corner or behind a truck/coach...
Plus I don't like to rip out all the hardwired stuff from my ST, it's working way too flawless...

If you have not already done so, you might want to consider setting both of your transceivers to the same signaling code (other than '00') and see if that reduces interference in urban areas.

Thanx for the manual Michael, I further also have the (serial!) programming cable + software for the Kenwoods, which might ease the process of syncing all 3 kits (2 in the bikes, one extra handheld for testing...)

Still unclear to me if it are the radios that suffer connection issues, or if the pairing between the SENA SR10 interface and the ER5 headset might be acting up...

Will try to eliminate one by one tough...

 

[Beeflips]

This may seem like a silly question, and I have no experience with this stuff, but what about a walkie talkie setup with VOX for hands free talk? albeit you're still "wired" because of the earpiece/mic. that has to connect to the individual radios. Has anybody tried this? and if so, what was the results?

 

[Uncle Phil]

Range is the issue there, BT works in direct view on like 200 meters, and nadda if one partner is around a corner or behind a truck/coach...

If I understand it, the SENA Mesh gives you a better range than their 'standard' BT option.
But then I could be wrong.
What I found when I removed all my Honda Valk CB systems was I had a lot more space in the tailpiece and other places.

 

[spiderman302]

If you bought your radio in Europe then it is most likely 446 mhz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMR446
If it is the North American version (462) you might be stepping on your local emergency providers.

I would turn off the tone squelch (program 00) on each channel and monitor each channel for activity.
A scanner would be better, but your Kenwood does not have this function.
The problem with 446 is that it maybe used for baby monitors, which moms leave on all the time...
or kids will have their secret chat rooms.
By open monitoring of each channel you might find which is the least used channel.
With the proliferation of cell phones, blue tooth and the internet, these frequencies seem to be less used.

 

[ASPC]

Have you tried listing to all available channels on your radios?

It is possible your radios are getting overloaded by strong signals on nearby channels or frequencies, this is normal in cities and it is called intermodulation. One option is to use small very short antennas like this BUT check the fitting for your radios before buying.

https://www.amazon.com/BaoFeng-SRH805S-SMA-F-Antenna-Baofeng/dp/B01BDAKDJS/ref=sr_1_10?crid=KRT218MODHXG&dchild=1&keywords=gmrs+stubby+antenna&qid=1632361413&sprefix=gmrs+stubby%2Caps%2C294&sr=8-10

The other thing to do is turn up the Squelch setting in the software until the noise is gone and run full transmit power on the radios.

 

[ad.hom]

If you bought your radio in Europe then it is most likely 446 mhz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMR446

...

The TK3101 is a PMR 446 isn't it?

Have you setup a QT tone? Page 8 (or 9) of the manual (depending on the version of the manual). That should rule out urban interference.

OP is in Vienna according to profile.

The problem with 446 is that it maybe used for baby monitors, which moms leave on all the time...

A modern baby monitor is using 2.4Ghz (older wifi range, still widely used for wifi in Europe). Older baby monitors in Europe will be using 864Mhz as per 2006/771/EC + 2013/752/EU. The older ones will also typically figure out the channel to use, in 60Hz hops.

As per my post in #4, correct QT setup on the Kenwood's will rule out urban interference on a PMR 446. Some SAR teams use PMR 446 radios for localised communication & to stay off the VHF channels.

if OP sets up QT, and continues to have interference issues, the problem much more likely the SENA.

 

[Hound]

If I remember correctly, Martin, you had your Kenwood connected to a rather nice external antenna on the bike. Is that still the case? I know it's a very obvious thing but could the antenna have somehow gone bad?

 

[ad.hom]

If I remember correctly, Martin, you had your Kenwood connected to a rather nice external antenna on the bike. Is that still the case? I know it's a very obvious thing but could the antenna have somehow gone bad?

Excellent point that thus far, I certainly hadn't considered.

Check the antenna connections haven't deteriorated with age etc, and if you can, check the grounds on the bike to make sure they're not inducing noise.

 

[ST1100Y]

In the meanwhile I too had the idea to check on the aux aerials, their orientation in particular...
AFAIK should the positioned as vertically as possible... not easy to achieve when hidden inside the fairing... (but I didn't want the bikes to look like porcupines... )

Since the DIY design (basically a coax cable with an SMA connector on the radio side, and the core exposed to the exact length of the original wire-antenna at the other end) are their both grounded with the radios, not the bike, hence shouldn't pic up much interference from the ICE and their systems...)

So I'll first toy around with antenna location/positioning, then try some QT settings...

Meanwhile I've also been informed that digital radios have an actually lower range and are even more sensitive to distortions then my old analogue ones... a change to "modern" ones wouldn't do anything...

 

[Hound]

At least I wasn't entirely barking up the wrong tree.

Hope you sort it out!