Fancy new Hybrid Battery

[NobodySpecial]

Last year I bought a new battery for my '04 ST1300. Never more than a week without riding it or being on a battery tender, and when put away for the year, I pulled the battery and had it on the tender all winter. After reinstallation, it felt soft and an hour after that 30 minute ride it was down to 12.45 volts and slowly dropping. I do not have any phantom loads. I had it tested and it was junk. Not even a year old.

It seems to me that the quality of batteries has gotten pretty bad; I normally get at least 5 years, sometimes over 10 years (OK, that was an outlier) out of powersports batteries!
Anyway, I recall that motobatt has been well recommended by those such as @Uncle Phil .
After rejecting Lithium Ion batteries, I saw motobatt makes a fancy Hybrid Battery, and I like it, so I bought one.
It's an AGM and a Lithium Ion together, with electronics in the middle. Theoretically, best of both worlds.

So far, it's been great. Currently holding a rock solid state of charge of 13.2 volts, 10 days off the charger (in the bike).
It also seems to turn over my friend's Super Tenere (somewhat famous for starting issues) a bit quicker than his new AGM. Hardly a scientific test.
Only time will tell, but for the 3 year warranty I'm willing to give it a go.

Found it here: https://www.motobatt.us/MHTZ14S-Motobatt-Battery_3

 

[Esti1300]

Wow, that is steep. Hope your get the performance you need out of it. Keep updating the forum if you can.
That being said, I can literally replace my ST battery four times for that price.

 

[spiderman302]

Hybrid ??
does it come with a tiny gas driven generator to take over when you run out of battery.....

 

[dwalby]

sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. I think the 1300 has a smaller battery than the 1100, but FWIW, I've owned my 1100 for 25 years and get 7-8 years out of AGM batteries, so the advantage of the hybrid at 2x the price is lost on me.

 

[ST Gui]

It also seems to turn over my friend's Super Tenere (somewhat famous for starting issues) a bit quicker than his new AGM. Hardly a scientific test.

Not all of us are scientists especially me. I noticed the first time I used my Li-Ion jump starter on my car that its starter spun much faster than it every did even on a fresh Pb battery. I think that's a property of the Li formulation. It did so the second time too. Since then I learned to double check the USB charger being off before getting out of the car. (I don't drive it all that much.)

But $218 for a battery... That does give one pause. That's even pricier than a retail Yuasa battery. Also a little price for just a 3 year warranty. Some members are fine with paying a lot less for a battery that only lasts 2-3 years.

It's still an interesting proposition. You're in South Central WI (LOL on the SC) so your winters are more severe than anything I've ever seen here. Li batteries are a little harder to start in cold weather. So the AGM part of that may eliminate that characteristic of Li. Still pricey... Was a special charger recommended? If not that would be a plus.

Chances are you just got a bad battery and another from the same source might have got you satisfactory performance and acceptable life. But nobody wants to be stranded. Please keep us apprised of its performance and may your battery outlive its warranty by a good amount!

 

[Larry Fine]

I noticed the first time I used my Li-Ion jump starter on my car that its starter spun much faster than it every did even on a fresh Pb battery. I think that's a property of the Li formulation.

It's actually because the Li-Ion battery pack is of a higher voltage, which means there's a greater transfer of power to the vehicle battery than there wold be from, say, another vehicle using jumper cables.

 

[SMSW]

Batteries and light bulbs share one common trait. Nobody can tell how long an individual example of each will last. The manufacturers can test a large number of units and after half fail, declare that age is the average. We have all read other comments about 'ABC' brand battery lasted me 14 years, and I recall a few threads describing new batteries dying within a few months of purchase. You got lucky...the bad kind.

It's an AGM and a Lithium Ion together, with electronics in the middle. Theoretically, best of both worlds.

Or the worst of both worlds - only time will tell. I remember a thread in which a number of us felt that Lithium batteries were not a cost effective solution to the 'what kind of battery is best' question. At $217 + shipping and tax its pricey. The warranty is interesting. You must purchase it from a Motobatt distributor, NOT walmart or amazon or other 3rd party sellers.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

At 270 CCA it will spin the engine over faster no doubt. Those extra 40 CCA don't come cheap.
Interesting technology. I hope it performs well for you. Keep us posted.

 

[Upt' North]

How Much?!?
Blummin ink, I better start saving up.........
Could I suggest we start having warnings before the high price figures, my heart isn't up to it.
How much?!?
And, I'm not that impressed with the 3 year warranty, don't all batteries last three years?
My present vehicles batteries are currently....
BMW X1 S/S 8 years.
Seat Mii 9 years.
The BeaST, replaced three years ago and working fine this spring. The old Yuasa was at least 6 years old and still working OK. Changed at £68.00 for peace of mind.
Upt'North.

 

[WobblyG]

I'm happy with good old fashioned lead acid batteries. They seem to last ok on my 1100 Pan, despite the fact its left parked in my yard in all weathers with just a cheap cover over it and no power for a battery minder. The only nod I give to battery life/charge is that I ride it at minimum of once a fortnight in the winter just to ensure the battery gets topped up. The rest of the year I'm usually out for three day weekends on the bike so battery condition isn't really an issue. My current battery is a Yuasa and I put it on the bike when I bought it in late 2017. Still working fine, and it was pretty cheap (about £50). My friend thought I should buy one of these new fangled lithium ion creations to make my bike lighter. I laughed so hard I nearly wet myself.

 

[NobodySpecial]

I'm well aware of the high price tag. Around here, most of the replacements would run between $100 and $130, so effectively I'm paying double (for more than double the warranty). I will also admit that at least one of the reasons I bought it was because I think it's nifty. The Deka battery that came with my ST lasted 3 years until I left the key on for a day. Given that the ST1300 is so easy to start and isn't hard on batteries (unlike some bikes I've had), from a purely value perspective I admit I probably overpaid. Like I said, though, it's also kinda nifty and I want to experiment a bit with it.

It does not require a special charger. They claim that it also returns to full charge very quickly (the LiOn part will absorb the charge and then feed it back to the AGM, or something, I don't know). I wonder how hard it would be to install an ammeter.

My memory says that the battery the ST1300 is the same as the 2002 ST1100 I just bought, and for that I bought a regular AGM motobatt.

I do know that compared AGM my friend just bought for his super tenere, this battery turns his bike over with substantially more authority. The ST1300 doesn't need that.

 

[Weaselinsuit]

I'll be curious to hear how it performs over time. And I get buying nifty. Gadgetitis it's real and it's serious. But also fun

 

[SMSW]

I wonder how hard it would be to install an ammeter.

It shouldn't be difficult at all. Ammeters are installed in series with the current source and will indicate currant flow into or out of the battery. The commonly seen ones on cars simply indicate if the battery is charging (alternator is outputting more than needed to run the vehicle) or not. You can get the same information from a voltmeter. If the voltage drops below 12.5V (might be slightly different for your combo batt) then your charging system, which will usually operate at 13+ a few points is not keeping up. You can get voltmeters online inexpensively, and you simply hook them up to a switched circuit (to avoid another parasitic load). While its best to connect as close to the battery as possible, any lightly loaded circuit will do, and you will learn what normal operation of the bike yields for voltage.

At 270 CCA it will spin the engine over faster no doubt. Those extra 40 CCA don't come cheap.
Interesting technology. I hope it performs well for you. Keep us posted.

As Larry said in post #6, its voltage that makes the world and our starters go 'round. Ok, maybe not the world, but higher voltage spins the starters faster. More CCA's let you spin that starter longer before the voltage drops, but most of our ST's start quickly so we are rarely stress a new battery. CCA's probably become more important as a battery ages and sulfates reduce the available power (CCA's) of the battery.

 

[Upt' North]

Gadgetitis, you should have said NS. I get it now.
Upt'North.

 

[Al st1100]

From what I understand about Lithium batteries is that its not good to leave it on a trickle charger .. From battery u Li-ion does not need to be fully charged as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge because a high voltage stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life

 

[Larry Fine]

It shouldn't be difficult at all. Ammeters are installed in series with the current source and will indicate currant flow into or out of the battery.

Maybe, depending on whether the 1300 is wired like the 1100, which uses separate current pathways (wires) for charging and for bike-running purposes.

 

[NobodySpecial]

From what I understand about Lithium batteries is that its not good to leave it on a trickle charger .. From battery u Li-ion does not need to be fully charged as is the case with lead acid, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge because a high voltage stresses the battery. Choosing a lower voltage threshold or eliminating the saturation charge altogether, prolongs battery life

That's one of the reasons I said "No" to a (normal style) LiOn battery. My understanding is that (basically) the bike only "sees" the AGM. A circuit board is between the AGM and the LiOn, and manages the flow of juice between the two. Primarily, the benefit to the approach as taken is that when you put a large load on it (say, 100A) the AGM will get drawn down quite quickly. That's when the circuit board kicks in the LiOn which doesn't have much reserve but can flow a lot of juice in a hurry. The same thing happens in reverse when charging, supposedly.
I don't know; I just read up on it as much as I could and inferred how it must work.

Also: Gadget-itis! Hah. New word for me.

 

[Erdoc48]

I have a Deltran Li battery in the 2000- bought it in 2015- I keep looking for a reason to replace it (likely with the same one) but it holds charge very well and just keeps running. I do keep it on a Li Battery Tender when not in use though.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

As Larry said in post #6, its voltage that makes the world and our starters go 'round. Ok, maybe not the world, but higher voltage spins the starters faster. More CCA's let you spin that starter longer before the voltage drops, but most of our ST's start quickly so we are rarely stress a new battery. CCA's probably become more important as a battery ages and sulfates reduce the available power (CCA's) of the battery.

Agreed.
I have no concern over cranking an ST1300 engine when it is warm however, they start very easily and do not tax the battery very much. I referenced the CCA because my litmus test is when the engine is cold, like 25 degree F cold. A higher CCA battery has more reserve capacity, but it also has a greater ability to supply the current needed and at the same time maintain a higher voltage output than a lower CCA battery does. Maintaining a higher voltage contributes to better performance from all of the electronics, especially the ignition, which translates to quicker starting, which matters when it is cold. I don't know the technical explanation of the electrical principles at play, I just know that I have observed higher voltage readings being maintained during cranking when using a higher CCA battery as opposed to a lower CCA battery.

Out of necessity, I once used a regular 12V lead acid battery from a bull-dozer to start a pick-up truck. The battery was probably in the 1000 to 1500 CCA range at a guess. The voltmeter barely fluctuated when the starter began sucking juice from that big battery.

 

[motornut]

12.5 volts on a regular battery is about normal, all batteries average about 2.2 volts for each cell. the best way to test a battery on the bike is to put a voltmeter on the battery and turn it over. anything under 9.5 volts is completely failed as it is too low for the electronics to boot up.
Although I prefer a amperage reading to make sure the amperage is not too low, a bad battery will burn out your starter so I go by a higher standard ( If I don't trust it, it is bad) Test the charging system with a volt meter also. If the voltage is there the amps probably are. It also could be checked with amp gauge for output.
The common problem with diodes is when the car or motorcycle needs a jump in the morning , runs ok that day but drains over a long period. Testing the diodes is most of the time not necessary as the newer alternators have internal regulators and diodes, so if it isn't charging the alternator is coming out. I remember the old bikes had a diode pack called a rectifier that did go out frequently, it was set somewhere behind the engine.
The biggest thing that destroyed motorcycle batteries was vibration and crappy low output charging systems. Todays bikes are smoother and charging systems much better.
Yes the Lithium, AGM and the like are designed to last longer, need lower maintenance and are more resistant to wearing out and vibration.
The electrical charging system has more to it then I have described and can be confusing when told by someone whom may not be clear enough when not explained right.
Remember battery voltage, voltage drop at cranking and charging above battery voltage. If that isn't there time to get deeper and there is a lot on the internet with pictures of where to put leads for testing, the troubleshooting on bikes is the same as the car. Including checking the wiring, parasitic load, and such.
One of the first steps on trouble shooting that should be followed is "Know your system" and that is according to Caterpillar, so I am not trying to be rude or snotty.