Frustrated...Brake Bleeding...Really in need of help...

[Soontobeone]

I've just spent the last 5 hours trying to bleed my brakes. I didn't have any problem removing the old brake fluid. I measured about 6 oz. of brake fluid removed from the entire system. Does that sound like an appropriate amount? I am using a Vacuum Bleeder (not a cheap one). I followed the Service Manual. But, still following the SM, and after reading everything I could find on the forum, I have only been able to successfully bleed the PVC and the Rear Center brake.

FRONT: Fill reservoir and pump brake handle; no air comes out of Master Cylinder and no resistance in handle. Bleed Left Front Outer caliper. Lots of air, some fluid, fill the reservoir 3, 4 or 5 times; I really didn't count how many times I filled the reservoir, but it was a lot (just for the LF outer). Still getting air, and some fluid. Keep filling reservoir. Still get lots of air, some brake fluid. So, am I doing something wrong, here? I figure that maybe the air I'm seeing is from around the bleed screw, so I move onto the Right Front Outer. Same story here. No resistance in the brake handle, so there has to be more air in the system. I just can't figure out how to get it out and why it's taking so much bloody brake fluid with no results!

The trouble is I am not getting the solid stream of fluid I expect to see. I see much more air. BUT, I've gone through three bottles of Honda DOT 4. Is this typical, or am I really a dufus, here? I've bled brakes before, but never on a motorcycle. I've never had this much trouble bleeding brakes when I've used a vacuum brake bleeder.

I have no clue what I'm doing wrong.

Your sage advice is sorely needed. Thanks in advance.

 

[Mellow]

The bleeder connection is not perfectly air tight so, what's happening is the vacumn is pulling air in from the outside, not necessarily the system. I get that all the time, just close the bleeder while you have a vacumn and you won't get air introduced into the system.

 

[sennister]

I had a similar issue. Finally I got frustrated enough that I pulled every one of the bleeder connections and put teflon tape that is used in household plumbing applications and put it on the threads. This helped prevent sucking air through the threads as Mellow mentioned. Once I did this I could see when I was really done sucking air. This made things go much better.

It doesn't sound like you are far enough along yet but you are following the proper pattern for the bleed right? I have it written down in my shop so I don't remember where to start. Also don't forget to tip up the left caliper when you get to that step.

 

[Mellow]

This is a great article:
www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?68913-ST1300-Brake-Fluid-Replacement

 

[Igofar]

I've just spent the last 5 hours trying to bleed my brakes. I didn't have any problem removing the old brake fluid. I measured about 6 oz. of brake fluid removed from the entire system. Does that sound like an appropriate amount? I am using a Vacuum Bleeder (not a cheap one). I followed the Service Manual. But, still following the SM, and after reading everything I could find on the forum, I have only been able to successfully get the PVC and the Rear Center brake bled.

FRONT: Fill reservoir and pump brake handle; no air comes out of Master Cylinder and no resistance in handle. Bleed Left Front Outer caliper. Lots of air, some fluid, fill the reservoir 3, 4 or 5 times; I really didn't count how many times I filled the reservoir, but it was a lot (just for the LF outer). Still getting air, and some fluid. Keep filling reservoir. Still get lots of air, some brake fluid. So, am I doing something wrong, here? I figure that maybe the air I'm seeing is from around the bleed screw, so I move onto the Right Front Outer. Same story here. No resistance in the brake handle, so there has to be more air in the system. I just can't figure out how to get it out and why it's taking so much bloody brake fluid with no results!

The trouble is I am not getting the solid stream of fluid I expect to see. I see much more air. BUT, I've gone through three bottles of Honda DOT 4. Is this typical, or am I really a dufus, here? I've bled brakes before, but never on a motorcycle. I've never had this much trouble bleeding brakes when I've used a vacuum brake bleeder.

I have no clue what I'm doing wrong.

Your sage advice is sorely needed. Thanks in advance.

....Igofar to the white courtesy phone....
PM me your phone number. I can help you.

 

[Tom Mac 04a]

Sometimes the old method of 'pump-hold, crack open bleeder, close, repump ...' works better.
I found to much vacuum hurt me more than helped till teflon tape on the bleeders.

 

[Geoff]

As per Mellow's post above...last week I used that link to bleed my whole system. I took the laptop out in the garage and a friend and I followed it to the letter. It worked out perfectly. Whlle doing that you might as well do the clutch also. Heck even flush the coolant if it needs it.

 

[Mark]

Good news indeed!

 

[st1300r]

Did you at any point let the resevoir suck in air? That might get the master a little air bound. Try working the handle a little while bleeding or ty-rap the brake on walk away and come back tomorrow. Might burb the air back into the mast res.

Chech the article for tips and as Joe said it isn't unusuall to draw some some air past the bleader threads. Just crack em a little to get fluid flow and close em while you still have vacuum.

Some use a check valve like a speed bleeder and a plastic tube over the bleed nipple.
Prime it with some fluid and you have a one way valve while you work the handle and keep an eye on the fluid.

BTW save some of that clean fluid that's been thru the system. Makes a great cleaner for the pistons when you change your pads. For that purpose it doesn't matter if it has some moisture in it.

 

[Igofar]

Timing is everything. I just did this yesterday and today.

I stopped at 3 hours before I knew I had to be doing something wrong.

A syringe full of brake fluid hooked onto the bleeder pushing fluid UP the brake lines released a MASSIVE amount of air up in to the master cylinder. Brakes bled in min, compared to the hours that led up to that.

Pic coming.

Good job Karen...you go girl!
Its much easier to push a bubble upward, than it is to pull one downward towards the bleeder!
Kudo's on you for thinking outside the box.

 

[Soontobeone]

A big THANKS to everyone who has responded. I am unable to try your suggestions for now, as I'm traveling for work. Once I return I'll be putting your suggestions to work. I'll keep you posted on my progress. Again, Thank You to everyone!

 

[Pete in PA]

I'll add this. no mater what the fluid looks like, don't remove the old fluid and put tons of air in. keep pumping till the reservoir is almost empty then hold the lever or pedal in the engaged position and clean out the reservoir. Fill with new fluid and continue pumping till you get clean fluid at the bleeder. Make sure you never go dry and suck air in.

Change the fluid at 2 year intervals (at most) from now on.

 

[Soontobeone]

I have to give a huge thank you to everyone here, but especially to Igofar. I used the Stockton brake bleed tool (it's just a one-way check valve in between two lengths of clear tubing). Igofar's advice about using the Stockton tool and tying the brake lever and foot pedal into their applied positions overnight really works.

Using this method, instead of going through three bottles of Honda DOT 4, l only used one. And, it took me much less time to acccomplish the entire brake bleed as well (read hours less).

A simple, inexpensive and effective method.

 

[MI-St1300]

You are putting the top cover back on before you pump the brake lever right? I'm not sure if that matters or not. I don't pump anything until the whole 7 bleeders are done and everything is closed up. If you have two people Karen's way is better if you sucked air into the whole system. Also air can become trapped at the crows foot connector on upper master.

 

[Igofar]

You are putting the top cover back on before you pump the brake lever right? I'm not sure if that matters or not. I don't pump anything until the whole 7 bleeders are done and everything is closed up. If you have two people Karen's way is better if you sucked air into the whole system. Also air can become trapped at the crows foot connector on upper master.

You do not need to put the top cover back on during the bleeding procedure. By doing so, you would not be able to watch the fluid level go down as well, and possiblly allow air to go into the system.
Using a tool such as the Stockton tool co. or the motion pro tool, is actually better than using the old fashion two people method, because it removes timing out of the procedure.
Air bubbles can be trapped at the crows foot, banjo fitting as well as the center raised portion inside the unit where the deflector shield is. Simple tapping will often allow a bubble to appear in this area.
Due to the high volume of PM messages about brakes lately, I'm finding I can't sit down and re-type everything to each and every email. It would be much eaiser if you would PM me a cell number
so I can call and discuss any questions you may have.
I'd be glad to take the time to help anyone how needs it.
Igofar

 

[wjbertrand]

Sometimes the old method of 'pump-hold, crack open bleeder, close, repump ...' works better.
I found to much vacuum hurt me more than helped till teflon tape on the bleeders.

Agreed 100% after much frustration with the vacuum pump idea I reverted to the tried and true way I'd always done done it before: pump up > hold > open bleeder > close bleeder - repeat. Fundamentally I prefer the idea of keeping the system at positive pressure to eliminate the possibility of air entering the system somewhere else besides the bleeder.

 

[Igofar]

I'll add this. no mater what the fluid looks like, don't remove the old fluid and put tons of air in. keep pumping till the reservoir is almost empty then hold the lever or pedal in the engaged position and clean out the reservoir. Fill with new fluid and continue pumping till you get clean fluid at the bleeder. Make sure you never go dry and suck air in.

Change the fluid at 2 year intervals (at most) from now on.

If I'm understanding your statement correctly, why would you want to run the old dirty fluid through the system? I agree 100% that you don't want to simply open the bleeders and pump out the old fluid, or you'll be fighting all the air introduced into the system, but I find it much easier to simply remove the fluid in the master cylinder, leaving the fluid in the lines, then cleaning all the dirt and silt out before re-filling the master cylinder with fresh fluid. Its very easy to use a syringe, ear bulb, turkey baster, or if the wife don't catch you, a tampon to soak up the old fluid Then its a simple matter to bleed the system.

 

[Soontobeone]

I've done brake bleeding before, with fluid in the system and fluid already drained from the system; lots of air. What I've found is, you can do it either way. Depending on the particular system you have to bleed it may or may not have issues where air is easily trapped when trying to bleed it. If it has these locations where air is easily trapped then it makes sense not to add more air into the system. But, if your system doesn't have this problem, I haven't found it to be anymore difficult to bleed with the fluid fully drained first, then adding new fluid.

If your new brake fluid happens to be of a different color than the one you're replacing it with, it makes it much easier to just empty the reservoir, add your new fluid and bleed, because you can actually see the new fluid color when it arrives. However, if it's not a different color then it can be much more difficult to see when your new fluid is coming through. That's why I measured mine when draing it, so I would have some idea when the old fluid should be out. (Not all old fluid is darker or different in color than the new fluid).

 

[dduelin]

I'll add this. no mater what the fluid looks like, don't remove the old fluid and put tons of air in. keep pumping till the reservoir is almost empty then hold the lever or pedal in the engaged position and clean out the reservoir. Fill with new fluid and continue pumping till you get clean fluid at the bleeder. Make sure you never go dry and suck air in.

Change the fluid at 2 year intervals (at most) from now on.

If I understand you correctly you do not want to drain the hoses and reservoirs per the service manual procedure which would introduce air throughout the system - then bleed all that air out. I agree with you but like Larry posted I don't like to just pump the old fluid out through the calipers. I siphon off the existing fluid in the reservoir, top it off with fresh new fluid from a new container, then pump new fluid through the circuit until new fluid is coming out the bleeders. Then I am sure new fluid has replaced the old.

The front brake circuits are short and I pump 1.5 reservoirs of new fluid through each front caliper. This is more than enough to replace the fluid and bleed them. The circuits fed from the rear reservoir ( proportional control valve, the SMC, the center fronts and both inner and outer rear) each take 1.5 to 2 complete reservoirs. The clutch I do with 1.5 reservoirs like a front brake circuit. Barring any problems with excess bubbles that might take another reservoir's worth of fluid this is right at 24 ozs of DOT 4.

I buy the 16 oz bottles as they are easier for me to control when pouring and I get 3 bottles when I do my clutch and brakes. I will have one left over if I need it but I usually do not use more than two.

 

[Pete in PA]

If I understand you correctly you do not want to drain the hoses and reservoirs per the service manual procedure which would introduce air throughout the system - then bleed all that air out. I agree with you but like Larry posted I don't like to just pump the old fluid out through the calipers. I siphon off the existing fluid in the reservoir, top it off with fresh new fluid from a new container, then pump new fluid through the circuit until new fluid is coming out the bleeders. Then I am sure new fluid has replaced the old.

The front brake circuits are short and I pump 1.5 reservoirs of new fluid through each front caliper. This is more than enough to replace the fluid and bleed them. The circuits fed from the rear reservoir ( proportional control valve, the SMC, the center fronts and both inner and outer rear) each take 1.5 to 2 complete reservoirs. The clutch I do with 1.5 reservoirs like a front brake circuit. Barring any problems with excess bubbles that might take another reservoir's worth of fluid this is right at 24 ozs of DOT 4.

I buy the 16 oz bottles as they are easier for me to control when pouring and I get 3 bottles when I do my clutch and brakes. I will have one left over if I need it but I usually do not use more than two.

That's my point. Don't make tons more work. I just pump the old fluid through, it's already in the system. gets any air out anyway. If you siphon out the master that's fine. just tie the lever/pedal in the applied position or air can get in.