I've got this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach Bad U-Joint

[jfheath]

Going to try to fix this myself after one of the two local Honda dealers said to drop it off and they'll get to it when they can(no thanks), and the other said they don't work on "old" bikes(it's an '06). I was lucky to find a U-Joint, but the swingarm locknut is nowhere to be found. Any suggestions/advice on making one would be most welcome.

The swing arm mounts went through an update process - Its hard to work out from the fiches, but I dont think that the later designs have a lock nut. Just bolts, shims and a very detailed and specific tightening sequence and shim fitment. It might be an update worth looking into. Not cheap though...

I've never done it but when I got my 03/04 shop manual, I also got the addendum, and went through both checking the differences and marking up the main manual to remind me to look in the addendum.

A breakers yard might be a cheaper solution.

 

[JimS]

The parts breakdown shows the locknut present for the '06. I have an '03 manual, but no addendum. From what I remember, changes started showing up in the '07 model year so I'm hoping that's still so. I should clarify the locknut I refer to is the tool to remove it, not the nut itself. Sorry for any confusion on that.

What I'm most confused about from the discussion in the original threads, I got the impression there was a procedure was laid out in the service manual. But all I see is how to R/R specific components, nothing targeting a U-joint procedure. I can't find in it, any mention from previous members discussing certain components which had to be moved/removed(O2 sensors, brake pedal, etc). The one technical article here is old and missing a lot of information, but it also implied just following the manual. Maybe I'm just being dense. I assume the 'procedure' is to start with the swingarm in ch 16.

Well, it's late and I'm a little blurry eyed. Maybe this will make more sense in the morning.

Thanks for the help John.

 

[JimS]

Ok, after a little more reading I think I'm straight on the procedure. I start in ch 14 and go to the swingarm section in ch 16.
I gotta get more sleep.

 

[jfheath]

The addendum shows the changes after the 03 model - but it is a UK manual. My 06 had the same swing arm arrnagement as my current 2013 (09) model.

One parts diagram shows THREE different sets for the left hand pivot bolt.



16,17,18 - I have seen on early models. Not sure how this works 16 looks like a locking collar, and 17 a bolt to lock the collar in place ???

9,11 seem to be a variation of this. 11 is a locknut

21,23,24, 20 - is the setup on my current A9 and on my previous A6. No lock nut. Just shims. My addendum suggests that this was used from the UK 2003 model.
21 is a colllar 23 is one of a number of shims (25 listed). One has to be sized and fitted when built or with a new swinging arm, but doesn't need to be changed after the same swing arm is removed and re-fitted. 22 is simply a dust cover.

If you have the 21/23/24/20 version and you want the info - drop me a PM with an email address.

 

[jfheath]

The tools required for the swing arm are still being listed on ebay. I searched for "ST1300 swing arm tool" st1300 swing arm tool - Google Search

The centre image in the screenshot below - the tool with the extansion handle is LIKE the one used on the ST1100, and similar to the one shown for the early ST1300s.
The other 4 are the ones similar to what is required for the ST1300 later models. My manual says the change happened after the 03 model - but I have seen 04 models with the locknut arrangement that would require the older tool.

I haven't checked the tools shown on the ebay photo below for being exactly the tools that are required. My 03 Manual says that part number 07ZMA-MCA0100 is the tool required for the locknut - looks like the centre image below - this is for the 03 and 02 models. My addendum manual quotes part number 07916-KA50100 5.8 x 45 for the models "after '03" and describes it as a locknut wrench - even though on the later 1300s there is no locknut. Instead, there is a shim - which once installed does not need to be re-measured - but the procedure for establishing which shim is required and the subsequent tightening process is very detailed and specific involving over-torquing, slackening, re-torquing and then using an angular final tightening (using strips of specific width tape as a guide).

 

[wizel]

I have also already changed the oil seal on the output shaft. It is a very time-consuming job to get to it. To loosen the swingarm bolts I have used the original tool from Honda and still improved. From year of manufacture 2004 bolts were used without locknut. I have driven into the original nut from Honda another bolt and welded. Thus, the nut has a much better guide and does not slip out of the bearing bolt when loosening and tightening, because the 4 grooves have a lot of play and are tightened with 130Nm. At the same time I changed the swingarm bearings, because I had everything off once and I did not want to go there again. To compensate for the existing play, there are 25 shims of different strengths from Honda.
With the newer bolts from 2004, you can remove the plastic cap in the middle and thus fit my modified nut from Honda perfectly in there. The hole I have then filled with grease to lubricate the bearings and closed with a rubber plug.
Make sure that no children or grandchildren are around when you try to get the rubber sleeve over the swing arm. You will use all the curses and swear words in the world.
greetings from germany
holm

 

[JimS]

This is the locknut I've been lamenting about. I couldn't find any sources stateside, and wasn't willing to order from a supplier in England(no offense, John). I bought a 1 1/4" socket and began grinding and cutting to create something that may fit. Over an hour later and still creating the first cutout, I was back to looking for alternatives.

Today I rode down to the dealer and asked if they could loosen it for me. Though the service manager was dubious I could have a bad U-joint, he offered to help. Took him several trips back and forth into the shop but finally found the right socket and voila, it came loose!

Sooo, I think I'm good to go for now, at least until I get things apart. John(jfheath) thanks for all the help and guidance. Holm, that is good to know. I was thinking about doing the bearings(and probably should), but I want to get this thing done asap and go on my road trip before the weather turns here. I'll remember your post if I decide to take things apart in the future.

 

[jfheath]

Thanks for posting that image. I have never seen that 'middle' variation just by casual glances at bikes. They are the ones labelled 9, 11, 12 in the image I posted earlier.

But you stll need the tool - the middle of the five tool photos that I showed earlier, to reinstall.

That is important. When you tighten the inner bolt with the large hex socket, it has a torque which is too tight for the bearing. But it has to be held in that position. When you tighten the lock nut, the locknut is tightened on the threads of that inner bolt, which PULLS the inner bolt back out again. This is a microscopic movement, but it is enough to bring the load on the bearing to the correct value.

So you need the tool that allows you to hold the inner bolt AND tighten the locknut at the same time. If you don't hold the inner bolt, tightening the locknut it will rotate it slightly.

This behaviour will be familiar to anyone who ever adjusted the old style wheel bearings on a pushbike. The cone and loose ball bearings. You adjusted them by feel. Adjust the cone so that you got the sweet spot - no free play, bearings not binding. It was a very fine adjustment which you could do easily with your fingers. Ok, got it. Hold the cone with that very thin cone spanner and secure it with the locknut. Perfect. Except the bearing was now way out. Tightening the locknut had changed the relative position of cone and axle. Start again, this time guessing how much tighter the cone needed to be so that when the locknut was tightened, the bearing would feel right. It was minute adjustments that had to be done by trial and improvement methods. ​

Having a swing arm with even slightly incorrect bearing adjustment is dangerous. Very dangerous. You need the correct tools that allow the axle bolt to be held and the locknut to be tightened simultaneously. The torque specified for the locknut takes into account the extra leverage of the arm that sticks out. There isn't a torque value given for just a tool without that arm.

 

[Hound]

Incorrect bearing adjustment is apparently the prime cause of the "Pan weave" that caused accidents on heavily-loaded police ST1300s in the UK - leading to their withdrawal from use.

My ST has the swing arm pivot arrangement on the far right of John's picture (16/17/18) with both a locking bolt and locking collar, with no shims.

 

[jfheath]

Ok - I have unearthed the info about all three types of left hand side bolts.
I have never had to do the swing arm bearings on either of my ST1300s, but I often had the 1100 swing arms off, to clean up, paint and treat.
The variations in thefixings has aften intrigued me - it wasn't until @JimS posted the photo of his model that I had the final piece

Gleaned from the Honda manuals, Microfiches, On-line photos, and one pinched from @JimS
The dates are as provided by the workshop manual and addendum.



'02 (early products and '03) (Source UK ST1300 A2.A3 workshop manual)

This is the middle one shown in the diagram as parts 12, 9 and 11. A flush locknut.

Tightening procedure:
Tighten right pivot bolt to 108Nm / 80lbf ft.
Tighten Left pivot bolt to 54Nm / 40 lbf ft - then slacken 90 degrees - then tighten to 41Nm / 30 lbf ft.

Tighten the locknut while holding the left pivot bolt - using the correct tool with the 'handle' Part number 07ZMA-MCA0100. 98Nm / 72 lbf ft
(This is an actual torque of 108Nm / 80 lbf ft - which is what would need to be applied to the locknut if the correct tool with the handle wasn't used.



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'02 (Latest Products) (Source UK ST1300 A2.A3 workshop manual and A4 Addendum)

This is the right hand variation in the top diagram - parts 16, 17, 18)

Align the swing arm holes with the frame holes.
Install right pivot bolt, do not tighten.

Apply oil to the left hand pivot bolt threads. Fit, do not tighten.

Tightening procedure
Tighten right pivot bolt to 108Nm / 80lbf ft.

Fit the left pivot bolt collar.
Tighten Left pivot bolt to 54Nm / 40 lbf ft - then slacken left pivot bolt 90 degrees - then tighten to 41Nm / 30 lbf ft.

I have no idea how this works, and cannot find any clues. Does the collar just slip on ? Is it threaded, what torque. No info is given.​

Neither can I find out what the lock bolt screws into.​

My only guess is that the collar screws on - and it doesn't matter how tight it is ??? The lock bolt screws into the collar and pushes against the bottom of the hex socket in the pivot bolt - preventing both the collar and the pivot bolt form turning.​

​

But what stop the pivot bolt from turning as the lock bolt is tightened ? I cannot find a picture of that collar anywhere.​

Apply engine oil to the threads and flange surface then install the lock bolt.
Tighten the lockbolt while holding the collar - using the correct tool with the 'handle' Part number 07ZMA-MCA0100. 44Nm / 33 lbf ft



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After '03 (Source - UK ST1300 A4 Addendum).
ie (2004 onwards - but I have seen 2004 models with the 2003 pivot bolt.)

This is the left hand side variation shown in the top diagram - parts 20, 21, 22, 23

Clean and degrease the right pivot bolt threads.

Align the swing arm holes with the frame holes.
Install both pivot bolts but do not tighten

Install right pivot bolt - tighten by hand until the bolt is against the bearing.
Tighten the right pivot bolt 20Nm, 14 lbf ft.

Tool - LockNut wrench 07916 KA50100

Cut a strip of tape 3.5mm wide and stick it over the joint between the bolt head and the frame of the bike. (Aim for the 12 o'clock position). It doesn't matter, but it is easier to see and describe.
Slice the tape at the joint - make sure the tape remains stuck in position.

Tighten the Pivot Bolt to 130Nm / 96 lbf ft

Check the tape. The tape on the bolt should have moved clockwise by the width of the tape, so that the left hand edge of the tape on the bolt, is now in line with the right hand edge of the tape on the frame.

If the above is not true, then tighten the pivot bolt until it is.

If the swing arm, the bearings or the pivot bolts have been replaced, then the setting has to be re-shimmed. Otherwise the old shim can be re-used. I'm not going to describe how to fit new shims - leave that to the workshop manual. nb - the commonly available 2003 pdf manual does not cover this procedure. Seek out how to do it.

Set up the left pivot bolt with its shim and collar.
Tighten the left pivot bolt to 130Nm / 96 lbf ft
Loosen the pivot bolt 90 degrees
Re-tighten the left pivot bolt to 130Nm / 96 lbf ft

Tool - LockNut wrench 07916 KA50100

Install the Left Pivot bolt cover and the dust seal.



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The code for the Swing Arm is the same for the UK for the 2002, 2004, 2006, 2009 models - which are the main varieties.
The bearings are the same as well.

I guess that this means that any of the pivot bolt arrangements can be used in any year. ??

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[Hound]

It's strange that Honda replaced the left-hand pivot in late 2002 (with my type that has the locking bolt in the middle), only to go back to the original design in 2003. I was told (though I can't find corroboration) that any police STs with the early 2002 & 2003 pivot were changed to this late-2002 redesign because it was safer/more secure.



I don't think anyone in the US or Canada is going to have this kind of pivot arrangement as we got the ST1300 here in the UK in 2002 and it arrived in the US in 2003, presumably with the type listed first in John's list. So the following pics are probably only of any use to UK owners with an early ST1300.

Here's the late-2002-only LH pivot with and without the locking bolt.



"Does the collar just slip on ? Is it threaded, what torque. No info is given. Neither can I find out what the lock bolt screws into."

I've never disassembled it other than remove the locking bolt, but here's what the photos show.

The collar doesn't appear to be threaded - it has a nut on the rear that presumably fits into the hexagonal opening of the pivot, once the pivot's torqued down/slackened/retightened. The centre locking bolt then screws into that nut while holding the collar to prevent the collar/pivot from moving. Presumably the pivot bolt is also threaded at the base of its hexagonal opening to accept it. Instructions are certainly a bit vague.

I nicked these pics from MCS.





The bolt is just a bolt!

 

[JimS]

I'm at the point where I can pull out the swingarm, except what appears are exhaust sensor cables now in the way. Tried, but can't loosen the nut where they connect to the exhaust pipes. I saw the cable before I pulled the swingarm bolts but they looked like the vent hoses I always see dangling down, like the stud my black '06 is.
I've re-read the (U-joint getin' at)process as it meanders through the various chapters, but can't find any mention of these sensors or their cables. Can't find them in the IPB either. What little I've seen, the cable seems to go waay up into the front end. Hoping I won't have to deal with that. But I have a penchant for not seeing what's right in front of me, so maybe someone can point out the obvious to me.

The joint boot fell to the floor, along with with the bearings as I pulled the swingarm back, and I can see the the head of the U-Joint, but couldn't get in there to pull it out. I'm figuring things out as I go along, like the right step holder, as it says to remove it, but it has the rear master cylinder and battery case, along with I don't know what else, so I just pulled it out far enough to get the rear shock absorber bolt out.

Even though the local shop loosened the left pivot bolt locknut for me, it took me pounding on it with the blunt edge of a chisel and the occasional movement with needle-nose pliers until enough of it stuck out so I could grab one of the tabs with a vise grip and loosen it the rest of the way.

The rest was pretty easy, and after walking out of Harbor Freight with about a hundred bucks worth of new tools, I have a new best friend(yeah, I'm lookin' at you, rear caliper stop bolt):


I should have bought one of these years ago, but I'm a little slow, and very cheap.

Hope to post some pics, but don't expect much. My thumb and fingers have a way of photo bombing any pic I take.

 

[motornut]

I replaced the cush-drive pads on my '04,,, after 200k km's. The originals looked okay,,, but rubber hardens with age,,, and I had come into a spare set anyway. It was apart for tire/brakes and bearings,,, so I swapped them out for the new set. There was very little difference (maybe slightly tighter),,, barely detectable. After a week,,, no noticeable difference. So imho,,, if they still look good,, they probably are,,, cheers,, CAt'

I replaced mine at about 115000 miles and noticed the same thing you did, they looked ok but were a little harder. Did not really notice any difference between the two in operation.

 

[JimS]

I've pulled out the U-joint and confirmed its failure. In the picture below, it is the one on the left. I tried articulating it as far as possible and that's as far as it will go. There is very little movement in that direction(left to right in the picture). I compare it to the new one on the right. Articulating on the other axis works fine and no visible damage to the joint itself or yoke. I'm also including pics of both pivot bolts and the notorious locknut.

 

[jfheath]

Good stuff. Glad that you have located and confirmed the fault.

When reassembling, check carefully what lubrication / grease is required and where. Note that there are places where molybdenum paste is required, and places where molybdenum grease is specified. There is a big difference between the two. Ask if you are unaware.

 

[JimS]

One more of the pivot bolts.
Thanks for the reminder on the Grease/Moly paste. I'm soaking the swingarm bearings tonite to see how they look. I'll probably replace them if I can find them in stock somewhere

.

 

[jfheath]

You'll get a good idea of how they roll once the grease is out. There is also a good indication of wear on the tapered shell in which the needle rollers sit. They will probably be marked / polished as each roller doesn't move very far - but if you can feel any undulations .......

 

[dduelin]

Idling in gear on the center stand it’s normal to hear knocking or rumbling noises as the pauses in power impulses during crankshaft revolutions take up and release all the gear lash, joint, and cush drive and spline play inherent in shaft drive. If you drag a tiny amount of rear brake and impose a small load on the idling gear train this should make a huge difference in the sound or remove it entirely. If the noises continue even with this small load on the drive train further inspection is warranted.

I add this post to calm the nerves of those hearing concerning noises at idle in gear, not to second guess the OP or others that have replaced the u joint. It is possible to diagnose u joint issues and bad driven spline flange bearings by doing this exercise but know without a load on the drive train some noises are completely normal.

 

[JimS]

Idling in gear on the center stand it’s normal to hear knocking or rumbling noises as the pauses in power impulses during crankshaft revolutions take up and release all the gear lash, joint, and cush drive and spline play inherent in shaft drive. If you drag a tiny amount of rear brake and impose a small load on the idling gear train this should make a huge difference in the sound or remove it entirely. If the noises continue even with this small load on the drive train further inspection is warranted.

I add this post to calm the nerves of those hearing concerning noises at idle in gear, not to second guess the OP or others that have replaced the u joint. It is possible to diagnose u joint issues and bad driven spline flange bearings by doing this exercise but know without a load on the drive train some noises are completely normal.

You have a good point on not jumping to conclusions based on one noise. Mellow repeatedly emphasized that in his thread years ago and I though I mentioned the steps I went through to diagnose it, it may not be entirely clear to someone reading this or previous threads on the topic.

I've run it in gear on the center stand before, but not with a heightened sense for a particular noise. I'm interested to try it again when all is done and compare. Thanks for the suggestion.

You'll get a good idea of how they roll once the grease is out. There is also a good indication of wear on the tapered shell in which the needle rollers sit. They will probably be marked / polished as each roller doesn't move very far - but if you can feel any undulations .......

I went ahead and ordered a new set for the swingarm. I couldn't get all the grease out, but being reasonably priced, and not requiring special tools, better safe just to swap them out.

On the left swingarm, I see scoring on the shell(outer race?) The right side was a lot grotier, but no apparent scoring. I wonder if it had anything to do with the amount of greased packed in. I get the impression the grease helps keep it lubed and moisture, dirt out? I'll cross that bridge when the bearings come in.

 

[wizel]

New bearings also include new bolts if you want to make it really perfect.
Greetings from Germany
holm