Nova-Scotians...

Sadlsor

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Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
4,289
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66
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
Bike
2008 ST1300A
STOC #
9065
Larry suggested the Motion Pro bleeder for our episode together, and the $15 USD is a small price to pay for that functionality.
I've seen them for years but never had one or used one before my SMC encounter.
Used to use a MityVac, but it was always bunglesome and fiddly to work with.
Messy, too, but it's not supposed to be.
 
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OP
The Dark Shadow
Joined
Aug 23, 2022
Messages
226
Age
53
Location
Nova Scotia
Not sure if you are aware/have read of the simple test of the SMC to give you an idea of its condition.
Just in case, here it is.

*** CAUTION ***
When you are performing this test it is possible to push on the SMC hard enough to push the motorcycle forward enough to allow the centre-stand up to fold up. This could result in the motorcycle falling on you. For safety, chock the front wheel and or strap the centre-stand to the front wheel to make sure that it can not fold up on you during the test.

If you have someone to help you:
With the motorcycle on the centre-stand;
- one person rotates the rear wheel while the other person pivots the SMC assembly upwards in the direction that the brake rotor rotates when the motorcycle is moving forward.

If you are doing this alone:
With the motorcycle on the centre-stand;
- Lie down along the left side of the motorcycle with your head at the front wheel end.
- Rotate the rear wheel with your foot while simultaneously pivoting the SMC as stated above.

- A normally functioning SMC should stop the rear wheel rotation immediately as soon as the SMC is pivoted. You should not be able to turn the rear wheel at all unless you are applying insufficient force to pivoting the SMC.

This second part is probably the more important part of the test.
- When you release the upward pressure on the SMC the rear wheel should IMMEDIATELY be free to turn. If it does not happen fully and immediately, this is an indication of an SMC problem.

It could be that the SMC piston is slow to return in it's bore for many different reasons.
It can also be as simple as the bearing and bushing that the SMC pivots on are not free to rotate. These need to be cleaned and re-greased every once in a while to make sure that they are not binding.

As stated many times on this forum, with properly functioning brakes and drive-line, the rear wheel should easily rotate after a good shove on the rear tire with one's foot.
How much pressure is normal to be put onto the SMC to move it forward enough...? Maybe my grip strength at that stretch sucks, but I can't fully "close" (retract, plunge, activate) the SMC with one hand, but if I add my second hand lightly, it's easy. I tried the one-person method but truly my left hand cant fully "activate" the SMC so my test is somewhat worthless.
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
56
Location
Dublin, Ohio
Bike
2005 ST1300
STOC #
6761
The SMC plunger is often difficult to move while mounted on the fork. You may benefit from having a helper.

If you have not bled brakes on any type of vehicle before, I would not suggest opening the bleeder screws. There is an alternative.

Put you bike in neutral and place it on its center stand, if is isn't already. Use a large flat-bladed screwdriver or similar tool as a lever between the pad and the rotor to gently push the pistons all the way into the rear caliper. Although the inner pad may still be touching the rotor, the outer pad on the piston side should not be touching the rotor. Depending on how new your pads are, you will have a 2-5mm gap between the outer pad and the rotor. Next, spin your rear wheel. It should turn at least 2 or more revolutions. If your wheel does not spin freely, then you can rule out your rear brakes as the culprit. Try that first and let us know how you fared.

Chris
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
1,440
Location
Houston, Tx
Bike
2003 ST1300
STOC #
5952
.......difference between "bleeding & replacing fluid" versus "flushing the fluid"...?

Technically....there is a difference.

Bleeding: removing the air from the lines.

Flushing: displacing the old fluid (all of it) and replacing with new.

Practically....with the ST....by the time you've removed the last bubble, chances are you've also flushed the system, possibly a few times over....

But let's say you are working on a system (doesn't have to be a vehicle) that burps the air as soon as you open the bleeder (hence the system is bled) then you'd still have to keep displacing new fluid until you see clean fluid coming out for a complete flush.

........sometimes it's necessary to bleed/flush the system more than once.......

Sometimes you may have to. If you start riding and the brakes still feel spongy...you may have to have another go at it to bleed remaining air. Hence the above...where the system would end up being generously flushed over by the time all the air is out!

Not sure your issue is air related though.
 

Andrew Shadow

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Jan 28, 2012
Messages
5,128
Location
Montreal
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2009 ST1300A9
How much pressure is normal to be put onto the SMC to move it forward enough...? Maybe my grip strength at that stretch sucks, but I can't fully "close" (retract, plunge, activate) the SMC with one hand, but if I add my second hand lightly, it's easy. I tried the one-person method but truly my left hand cant fully "activate" the SMC so my test is somewhat worthless.
I just went out and tried it for you.

Here is how I did it;
The bottom of the SMC piston is flat and is a perfect place to apply force in the correct direction. While lying on the floor next to the motorcycle, I push up on this flat spot with the thumb of my right hand while rotating the wheel by applying force against the tire with my right foot.
As a point of reference, this is being done by pushing with my thumb only. Using other parts of the hand, such as the palm for example, would allow applying much greater forces.

The result;
- The SMC just STARTS to move with very little force applied. There is no discernible brake application at this point, the SMC has just STARTED to move.
- The rear wheel becomes difficult to rotate with what I would refer to as moderate force.
- The rear wheel is locked at what I would call high force.

I always find answers like the above to be of only limited value. Is what I call moderate force roughly the same as what you call moderate force? Maybe I have been a brick layer for 30 years and have extremely strong hands while someone else has been sitting at a desk all of their life and has the same hand strength as my five-foot nothing wife. To negate this variable to some degree, I did this test a second time using a force gauge so I could measure the actual force that I was applying so as to give you some real numbers to compare against. I have a force gauge, so this was easy for me to do. How you will measure the force that you are applying so that you can compare your test results against mine is, unfortunately, a problem that you will have to sort out.
If you have no other means, you can always push your thumb against your bathroom scale to at least have an idea of what each level of force feels like.
If you desperately want actual numbers and you have no other option, and if you have someone to help you, you can actually use your bathroom scale with a piece of wood to push against the SMC. As silly as this sounds, the bathroom scale measures the same forces that a force gauge does, just not as easily or as precisely.

The result measured by a force gauge;
- The SMC just STARTS to move with about 7 Lbs. force applied. It may have begun a little sooner. It is to hard to tell without actually measuring the movement, but this gives you a good idea.
- The rear brake begins to apply with about 20 Lbs. force applied. I determined this by the change in the sound of the pads rubbing against the disc, so not scientific.
- The rear wheel is noticeably more difficult to rotate with 25 Lbs. force applied.
- The rear wheel is very difficult to rotate with 30 Lbs. force applied.
- The rear wheel can barely be moved with 35 Lbs. force applied.
- The rear wheel can not be rotated with 40 Lbs. force applied.

Keep in mind that the above is far from scientific because I have no idea how much force I am applying against the tire with my foot, and my foot has not been calibrated against your foot to ensure equal force is being applied in both of our tests. This is just to give you a more tangible idea of the forces required.

A couple of notes:
- As a point of reference, the forces being applied when the motorcycle is in motion and the brakes are applied will be much higher than this, and so will be the rear braking force.
- I have never read of this test being done before, and this is the first time that I have done it. As such, I have no idea if the results that I obtained are good, bad, or in the normal range.

And don't forget;
*** CAUTION ***
When you are performing this test it is possible to push on the SMC hard enough to push the motorcycle forward enough to allow the centre-stand up to fold up. This could result in the motorcycle falling on you. For safety, chock the front wheel and/or strap the centre-stand to the front wheel to make sure that it can not fold up on you during the test.
 
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