Question about cam lobe

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Not sure but I think I skipped a tooth while playing with my cam tensioner tool on the left side. How can I confirm that I have the correct position or still off a tooth?
The manual says to remove the right side, align the T2 Mark with the #2 cam lobes pointing outward. Then rotate the engine 3/4 270 degrees until T1 aligns. Install the left cam shaft with the index lines on the cam sprocket facing outward.

I never had the cams out but the lobes does not align.

HELP

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OP
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Here is a picture of T1 and then lobes position the marks on cam... one more question. Can the chain jump a tooth on the crank or cams with the cam tensioner loosen off with every thing else tight?

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Byron

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You say they don't look right, what do you think you should be seeing compared to what you are actually seeing?

Actually you just need to make sure that the marks on the cam sprocket line up with the edge of the head when the correct timing marks inside are lined up. If all the marks are not lining up then you may have jumped a tooth.
 
OP
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You say they don't look right, what do you think you should be seeing compared to what you are actually seeing?

Actually you just need to make sure that the marks on the cam sprocket line up with the edge of the head when the correct timing marks inside are lined up. If all the marks are not lining up then you may have jumped a tooth.
Thanks for the reply Byron. I updated the original post with better pictures. I have done valve shims and even rebuilt my 1981 cb750C but this V engine has me a bit confused. I just want to make sure there is no screw up when i hit the start button. If the position is off will the valves hit the piston or is there enough clearance

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I placed a feeler gauge across the top on the head with T1 in position and it's off by 1 maybe 2mm. Is that about right for a tooth being off or am I to paranoid

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jfheath

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The T1 Mark is in the correct position - maybe a tiny bit to the right of the pointer. Hard to be certain from the photo.

It is almost impossible to get an accurate line of sight in order to assess the position of the L-Ex mark in relation to the surface of the casting, and it is very easy to convince yourself that you have them out of alignment.

Again (from the photos) I would suggest that your L-Ex mark is also spot on. In spite of the fact that it looks a tad too high.

Here's why I think that. It looks to be a tad too high, because the camera is looking down onto the top of the casting. How do I know ? 2 reasons:
1) You can see the joining surface. If you were looking absolutely horizontally, then non of the top surface of the of that front crankcase cover would be visible. Your line of sight is a tad too high, which means you can see a gap between the top of the crankcase cover and the index mark.
2) The shadow is parallel to the top surface of the crankcase cover, and the index mark is parallel to that. If the timing was one tooth out, there would be a small but noticeable angle between the LEX index mark and the shadow.

But you need to convince yourself. Get a mirror. Find a light source that will cast a good clean shadow (LED lamps are not very good at this, I find). View the top of the crankcase and the L-Ex index mark through the mirror. Raise the mirror too high so that the index mark seems to be higher than the surface of the crankcase cover, and then slowly lower the mirror. Watch the top surface of the front of the crankcase cover - not the index mark. As soon as it disappears from view, you are looking from exactly the right point. The L-Ex index line should be immediately in line with the front edge.



Then use your flashlight - to convince yourself again. Instead of the mirror, point the flashlight from the same place, and watch the shadow. The shadow should sit exactly on top of the L-Ex index mark at one point - the mark should not be at an angle to the shadow. I can see this is the case from your photo.
Note that the shadow from the camera flash is a bit misleading, as the lens is not in line with the flash - the photo indicates that the lens is above the desired line of sight, the flash is below. However - it does show that the L-Ex is parallel to that front surface.
Finally, rotate the engine 360 degrees (anticlockwise) so that T1 is again aligned with the pointer in the windows. Now L-Ex and L-In will be facing each other. Both of them will be in line with the top of the crankcase cover and in line with each other. If one of them is even slightly at an angle it will be very obvious.

The lobes do look a little different - but the camera position isn't helping - it is able to see more of the cam for the intake than it is for the exhaust - as are you.

To answer your other question - Is it possible to mess up the timing by playing with the cam chain tensioner ?
Theoretically possible, but in my opinion, unlikely if there is no movement in the cams or the engine. The risk would be that the chain loops under the smaller lower sprocket at the end of the crankshaft (half the size of the cam sprockets). But how would the chain disconnect with all of the teeth down there without any movement ? (Not a definitive answer - just my thoughts).

The real danger of this happening is when shims are replaced - you hear of people marking the chain and the sprocket so that they are put back in the same position when the camshaft is re-installed - ignoring the fact that with the camshaft removed, the chain could have become detached from the sprocket at the lower end and is now a tooth out from where it was before.

But if your T1 is lined up, and your L-Ex and L-In are aligned as described in the manual - you have that eventuality covered.
 
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jfheath

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These photos are not very good, but I lost the original images and they all I have got. Both of them are looking from far too high - you can see the top surface of the front crankcase cover. But you can see that the first photo shows the index mark as being parallel to the edge (almost **). The 2nd photo shows what the L-Ex mark looks like when it is one tooth out .

** Only almost parallel, because the tensioner isn't on and there is a little slack in the chain at the top. But that angle on the L-Ex mark although small, is noticeable. Getting a lower line of sight clinches it - just as the front surface of the crankcase disappears behind the leading edge.

valve-lh-ex-ok.jpg

valve-lh-ex-toohigh.jpg
 
OP
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Thanks for the reply JF I appreciate it. I'm pretty sure I'm not off a tooth but this is my 1st crack at the ST cams, like I said inline4 and I can do it with my eyes shut. I'll do some more looking tomorrow after work, spin the crank 5-6 revolutions and align T2 then T1 and compare the marks on the cams..


I done the mirror, light and rotating the crank by myself. I wasn't that hard once I got the hang of it
 
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Byron

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The other thing you have to remember is that the chains will stretch some with mileage. After doing a few valve checks using the timing marks, which I think is a pain, I came to the conclusion that the clearances were to be checked based on the cam position. Because of this I started to use only the marks on the cam sprockets before taking my measurements. I'd follow the manual procedure as laid out but would go off the sprocket markings only. My reasoning was that even with the internal timing marks lined up it seemed like the sprocket marks lagged behind ever so slightly. This I attributed to chain stretch. With the sprocket marks properly aligned with the edge of the head I new the cam was where it needed to be to take the measurement. Not only that but it was a hell of a lot easier to see. For extra insurance after making the first pass I would do it again to ensure that my first measurements were correct.

I hope this helps put your mind at ease.
 
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Td,
Can't quite tell for sure, but it looks ok.

Look through my pictures in this album for as-found cam sprocket marker alignments for both right and left banks, when each is at TDC:
https://www.st-owners.com/forums/album.php?albumid=2646
Your album helped thanks. I'm positive the chain did not jump a tooth. I also done a search on the site and someone said that if a tensioner fails the chain cannot jump a tooth because there is not enough slack. I hope he is right.
.
 
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The other thing you have to remember is that the chains will stretch some with mileage. After doing a few valve checks using the timing marks, which I think is a pain, I came to the conclusion that the clearances were to be checked based on the cam position. Because of this I started to use only the marks on the cam sprockets before taking my measurements. I'd follow the manual procedure as laid out but would go off the sprocket markings only. My reasoning was that even with the internal timing marks lined up it seemed like the sprocket marks lagged behind ever so slightly. This I attributed to chain stretch. With the sprocket marks properly aligned with the edge of the head I new the cam was where it needed to be to take the measurement. Not only that but it was a hell of a lot easier to see. For extra insurance after making the first pass I would do it again to ensure that my first measurements were correct.

I hope this helps put your mind at ease.
Thanks again Byron.. I love doing mechanical work and the ST is no exception. but it's a one shot at it almost even if it is off a tooth I can always do it again. My older brother tinkers more than me. He had 4 bikes last summer, 3 mid 80s v45 with he still has one and then late summer he found a 80s KZ1100.
 
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The other thing you have to remember is that the chains will stretch some with mileage. After doing a few valve checks using the timing marks, which I think is a pain, I came to the conclusion that the clearances were to be checked based on the cam position. Because of this I started to use only the marks on the cam sprockets before taking my measurements. I'd follow the manual procedure as laid out but would go off the sprocket markings only. My reasoning was that even with the internal timing marks lined up it seemed like the sprocket marks lagged behind ever so slightly. This I attributed to chain stretch. With the sprocket marks properly aligned with the edge of the head I new the cam was where it needed to be to take the measurement. Not only that but it was a hell of a lot easier to see. For extra insurance after making the first pass I would do it again to ensure that my first measurements were correct.

I hope this helps put your mind at ease.
Agree 100% about chain stretch affecting the agreement between the crank and cam marks. I see the same thing on my VTR.
 

Byron

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If you are still worried about being one tooth off here is a way to check. Set the timing marker per the manual. Check the cam sprocket markings. Remember they may be off slightly due to chain stretch. Now rotated the engine to the next adjustment position, the other side. Again check the cam sprocket alignment and compare them against the other side. If the markings are very close on both sides then I don't believe you have jumped a tooth. However, if one side is off more than the other it is possible you jumped a tooth.

If you think you jumped a tooth on one of the sides then you need to set the internal timing marks and then go to the side you think may have jumped and move the cams into the correct position. After doing this you need to go back through the procedure again to ensure that both side appear to be as close as they can be and that the markings are the same for both sides.

I'm sorry if this sounds confusing but it is the best I can explain it without actually being able to show you what I mean.
 
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If you are still worried about being one tooth off here is a way to check. Set the timing marker per the manual. Check the cam sprocket markings. Remember they may be off slightly due to chain stretch. Now rotated the engine to the next adjustment position, the other side. Again check the cam sprocket alignment and compare them against the other side. If the markings are very close on both sides then I don't believe you have jumped a tooth. However, if one side is off more than the other it is possible you jumped a tooth.

If you think you jumped a tooth on one of the sides then you need to set the internal timing marks and then go to the side you think may have jumped and move the cams into the correct position. After doing this you need to go back through the procedure again to ensure that both side appear to be as close as they can be and that the markings are the same for both sides.

I'm sorry if this sounds confusing but it is the best I can explain it without actually being able to show you what I mean.
Thanks Byron. I done that. I did not screw with the 2 - 4 side (right) and compared that to 1 -3 left side and they are virtually the same so I am convinced all is well. I like the ST it's my miSTress. I bring her home every night and my wife has no knowledge of the affair
 

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Don't kid yourself. :)
Yep. SWMBO refers to my STeed as my girlfriend.

Glad you're happy with your cam situation. I know I went through the same kind of worry when I adjusted my valves last year. Except in my case there was something to worry about as the chain had slipped off the drive gear at the bottom during the procedure and things didn't line up properly at first. Some good tips in this thread from across the Pond from Mr. Heath I wish I'd thought of last year. :) :bow1:
 
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Ya it was a heart stopper. I rebuilt my 1981 cb750c back in 2004ish and that was quite easy, but this 4 cam thing had me shivering. But all is well, the hotcams shim will be here Tuesday and the game starts all over again. I'm glad I done it this weekend while waiting for the shims...

Stay tooned
 
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