Pros and Cons of DCT vs manual

[dduelin]

I was able to demo a DCT Tour this morning. The dealer asked me to be back 30 minutes or so and that was about as long as it took to take the long way to my house and get my wife on the back. She is an important part of any decision this big and if she buys in then who knows.

There are a bunch of reviews online already so I'll save that bandwidth. It's an awesome motorcycle and the DCT has been refined to a very high degree. Very smooth and responsive. No human can kick down 3 or 4 gears as quick as this does and the downshifts are smoother than my 700X. One of the dealership employees took this quick video of parking lot maneuvers. The bike is super easy to ride slow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8MFNKsga10

 

[paulcb]

I was able to demo a DCT Tour this morning. The dealer asked me to be back 30 minutes or so and that was about as long as it took to take the long way to my house and get my wife on the back. She is an important part of any decision this big and if she buys in then who knows.

Nice Dave. No wheelies?

I've been researching the VFR1200X DCT and have been curious about the slow speed handling. This, and everything I've read about the DCT says it's not a problem at all. Thanks for posting.

So, how did it feel compared to the ST13?

 

[kendoo]

I was able to demo a DCT Tour this morning. The dealer asked me to be back 30 minutes or so and that was about as long as it took to take the long way to my house and get my wife on the back. She is an important part of any decision this big and if she buys in then who knows.

There are a bunch of reviews online already so I'll save that bandwidth. It's an awesome motorcycle and the DCT has been refined to a very high degree. Very smooth and responsive. No human can kick down 3 or 4 gears as quick as this does and the downshifts are smoother than my 700X. One of the dealership employees took this quick video of parking lot maneuvers. The bike is super easy to ride slow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8MFNKsga10

What did the wife think Dave? I'll be down in March to check it out

 

[sky.high]

Was the video taken in walk mode?

 

[ST Gui]

Was the video taken in walk mode?

?? That's a pretty brisk 'walk'.

 

[dduelin]

Nice Dave. No wheelies?

I've been researching the VFR1200X DCT and have been curious about the slow speed handling. This, and everything I've read about the DCT says it's not a problem at all. Thanks for posting.

So, how did it feel compared to the ST13?

From the cockpit it's not much bigger than the ST1300, in fact where the tank would it appears to be narrower and the mirrors are set out on mounts away from the fairing with daylight in between so it seemed like there was less mass in width out front. The pegs are little further forward and the bars seemed to be closer thus straightening the spine and opening up hip and the knee angles... I did not have enough time to feel really acclimate so it felt a bit odd to me the entire time. Of course it was fast and incredibly smooth. I'm used to my 700 slipping through 6 gears by 40 mph in Drive mode under light throttle and the GW in Tour does the same except smoother. The first 3 shifts from a start to 4th under light throttle are almost imperceptable unless you watch the tach. Sport is quite a noticeable change in shift pattern with gears being held longer and shifts snappier with less clutch slip engagement. I did not try Rain or Econ modes. Downshifts are smoother than my bike [NC700X] and probably as smooth as rider of average skills could do with a clutch. This is much better than my 700. Cruising at 55 in 7th in Tour auto mode a WOT drops 4 gears in the blink of an eye and the 6 cylinder burble becomes a wail. Passing is a thought, not a problem to solve. At 90 mph it's no more noisier or turbulent than 60. The stock shield is higher than the ST's both at the bottom of their travel and it's likely 2 or 3 inches higher at the bottom of travel. Quiet quiet quiet.

My wife liked it as I thought she would because of the passenger seat accommodations. It was easier than the ST for her to climb aboard and it was easier for me to lift off the side stand with her settled in. It looks magnificent in the red. At the dinner table she was asking money questions.

 

[ST_Jim]

Well, the ST1300 is pretty easy to wheelie. All you need is a loaded top box or a passenger leaning back, and just roll on the throttle. 1st gear and the front end comes right up - it doesn't even have to be intentional!

 

[rjs987]

... At the dinner table she was asking money questions.

Uh oh, Sounds like a new horse is soon to show up in the stable.

 

[dduelin]

Was the video taken in walk mode?

The walking mode speed in forward is limited to 3/4 of 1 mph IIRC. This was in Tour auto shift mode in first gear using the throttle against rear brake. You can see a couple places where I throttled a little too much or released a little too much brake and the bike jumped forward a little.

 

[SMSW]

The walking mode speed in forward is limited to 3/4 of 1 mph IIRC. This was in Tour auto shift mode in first gear using the throttle against rear brake. You can see a couple places where I throttled a little too much or released a little too much brake and the bike jumped forward a little.

How exactly does the bike start from a dead stop? It is my understanding that the DCT shifts quickly and seamlessly - so there is very little slipping of the clutch. How about starting from an uphill stoplight? In your parking lot video, is there a minimum speed that the bike will go forward (assuming a very skilled operator)? How do you 'feather' the (nonexistent) clutch? Is it ALL throttle controlled?

 

[BakerBoy]

+1. Having never ridden a DCT bike, my curiosity isn't in how smooth and seamless sequential shifts are in normal riding--that topic has been beat to death in many threads and journalist reviews.. There's overwhelming consensus that the DCT (especially on the new Goldwing) is very good in normal riding. :yes:

But my unanswered question about 'goodness' of DCT is around safety in fast changing scenarios: I wonder how seamless it acts and how capable it is in situations where there is atypical, sudden, urgent changes in throttle or brake or both, especially at very low speeds (lower speeds than can be attained creeping along at idle in first gear). I'm specifically curious as to how it behaves as the bike is being stopped or has just stopped and the computer is feathering or opening the clutch (such as at a stop light), and at that same instant, you need immediate power and clutch engagement to avoid getting rear-ended by a car who's driver didn't see the stoplight.

Those transition moments to zero or just off of zero speed (when sudden brake, throttle, or clutch actions are required) seem likely to be the biggest software challenge of DCT--perhaps that is addressed and the DCT is very good in those moments too, but I've not gathered any sense of it from reading various threads and reviews.


(Not that I'm considering a DCT Goldwing, rather just wondering.)

 

[T_C]

I want to know about slow speed feathering the clutch scenarios. I often have 2 miles of traffic backup to get through where the speed averages 0 to 5 mph.

 

[catcher]

DCT is very good in those moments too

Not a problem at all. Imagine yourself slow or stopped, and you see in your mirror someone coming from behind, far too quickly - just twist the throttle - you'll rocket ahead! Can't stall, or mess up a shift.

traffic backup to get through where the speed averages 0 to 5 mph.

DCT is a major benefit in that frustrating situation. But texting still isn't a good idea...

 

[BakerBoy]

Catcher, yeah, not stalling it is important!

In thinking it through, perhaps it is moderately easy for the computer to be prepared when it's in 1st gear and at zero or near-zero speed for normal throttle and brake inputs, but what does it do with strange or conflicting inputs??

So have you tried to confuse DCT at very low speed or as it shifts up or down from 1st to 2nd or coming to a stop with jerky brake or throttle or conflicting brake and throttle inputs (such as happens when one is startled)? That's when it is most likely to have the wrong gear ready. I wonder if, for example, it has 2nd gear active and it is determining from confusing/abrupt/conflicting brake or throttle inputs whether it flops between having 1st or 3rd ready, with delays or lack of acceleration regardless of throttle position.

 

[rjs987]

Having experience with a true CVT on my Burgman 650 I'm interested in comparing operation of the DCT. All situations mentioned just above are handled without drama with a CVT. I would expect almost no difference with a well developed DCT. Very slow running in a long line of traffic was no problem and the clutch would auto-feather at low throttle input. I could creep forward VERY slowly. Rapid take off was equally un-dramatic as torque was applied directly as throttle was applied, with more throttle came an immediate increase in torque resulting in immediate "get out of the way" acceleration. Of course a true CVT has no "gears" to shift into but is continuous application of torque throughout the speed and power range as needed. More throttle increased torque and less throttle decreased torque. Only the clutch operation was barely noticed at initial startup. Still I would expect the same with this DCT due to all I read and really do want to test ride and find out for myself. The website for the local dealer here does not yet show that they have any yet. Since it's still cold with chances of snow continuing through the next month and a half I don't really expect any in stock until early March at soonest. I can wait. I don't think they would allow a test ride until the streets are cleaned off of most of the sand and grit from winter treatments.

 

[catcher]

what does it do with strange or conflicting inputs??

I don't see how conflicting inputs are possible. Throttle is variable, zero to full. (I prefer full) Even a quick on - off - on throttle application won't bother the DCT; it would probably get a reaction from your passenger, though! Although I've ridden my DCT - VFR a whole season, I honestly can't say whether the throttle works when the brakes (linked) are applied. That would indeed be a conflicting input! Interesting. Wait a couple of months til the snow's gone; I'll check it out and report back... Btw, I do remember throttle functioning normally when the rider forgets to release the parking brake, sigh.

 

[sky.high]

I have to admit I do find it amusing how we don't think computers can mimic our human actions when self drive cars are already a reality and are better drivers than humans, we're on the verge of a robotic revolution that will likely present one of the biggest challenges to our society. I sure DCT works just great on all situations, many already stake their lives on it and plenty more will follow, still we are curious by nature but not to far away from that curiosity being obsolete in an automated world most of us will never be able to understand the inner workings of.

 

[dduelin]

Catcher, yeah, not stalling it is important!

In thinking it through, perhaps it is moderately easy for the computer to be prepared when it's in 1st gear and at zero or near-zero speed for normal throttle and brake inputs, but what does it do with strange or conflicting inputs??

So have you tried to confuse DCT at very low speed or as it shifts up or down from 1st to 2nd or coming to a stop with jerky brake or throttle or conflicting brake and throttle inputs (such as happens when one is startled)? That's when it is most likely to have the wrong gear ready. I wonder if, for example, it has 2nd gear active and it is determining from confusing/abrupt/conflicting brake or throttle inputs whether it flops between having 1st or 3rd ready, with delays or lack of acceleration regardless of throttle position.

I'll say that you've never read or heard of a confused DCT is because in my experience it never happens. Riders get flustered and make stuttering decisions but operating with a simple set of algorithms the DCT does not. It chooses what to do correctly and does not waffle - the rider does but if you try and confuse it by rapidly opening and closing the throttle it selects the correct gear quicker than any rider can and is ready to go when the rider ultimately makes up his/her mind. I believe in the hierarchy of PCM decisions braking is not a sensory input. Rather it senses acceleration or deceleration based on selected gear, trending wheel speeds and throttle position. If I'm waffling and the machine is in 2nd it only has to have 1st and 3rd at the ready. I have never experienced anything but safe predictable operation from the DCT machine I ride. Now only if I could be safe and predictable at all times.

 

[dduelin]

How exactly does the bike start from a dead stop? It is my understanding that the DCT shifts quickly and seamlessly - so there is very little slipping of the clutch. How about starting from an uphill stoplight? In your parking lot video, is there a minimum speed that the bike will go forward (assuming a very skilled operator)? How do you 'feather' the (nonexistent) clutch? Is it ALL throttle controlled?

Peter,

You simply twist throttle and go. The computer controls clutch engagement based on throttle position, rpms, and wheel speed. It cannot stall and never will. On steep uphill starts I can only assume it slips the clutch a little longer allowing the rpms to continuing climbing as wheel speed increases. You will have back brake applied to keep from rolling backwards then you give it some gas and release the rear brake and off you go.

On most vehicles there is sufficient braking available to overpower thrust. From a standing start to the speed of these maneuvers you modulate rear brake to control speed on DCT. The DCT clutch that controls the odd number gears (1, 3, 5, etc., the other one controls 2, 4, 6, etc.) takes up in a range of a few hundred rpms off idle. It's not possible for me to hold rpms in that narrow friction zone so the clutch is pretty much engaged completely by 1200 or 1300 rpms. I normally hold rpms around 1800-2200 when working in the friction zone of any bike in slow speed maneuvers. On the ST I'm slipping the clutch in the friction zone and dragging some rear brake if needed. On a DCT bike or any bike with an automatic clutch I'm dragging rear brake to control speed. Hope this helps.

 

[ddemair]

I have to admit I do find it amusing how we don't think computers can mimic our human actions when self drive cars are already a reality and are better drivers than humans,

I think self-driving cars are getting closer and closer to prime time, but they're not really here yet. They're still running trials and there's still a human behind the wheel. Are they better? Well, better at hitting the brakes, yes, but probably not better at understanding a crossing guard's vague signals or a police officers verbal instructions.

I am not a luddite at all, but where human safety is involved, I'm a big fan of healthy skepticism.