09PA Brakes Grabbing - Resolved

aniwack

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Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
633
Location
Atlanta, GA
Bike
Odd Years
2025 Miles
001200
During my great overhaul I’ve come to realize my brakes are grabbing and it is eating into the rotors. Front and rear only move a quarter turn before stopping. I released pressure on the right front lower valve bleeding the brakes (4 times) and the brakes release until the foot pedal is pressed again. Now the hand brake pressure is weird. With the SMC removed from the bike the front right is still grabbing.
is it the SMC? It’s only a year old.

Original conversation post: https://www.st-owners.com/forums/threads/counter-balance-adjuster.170916/
 
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...is it the SMC? It’s only a year old.
It could be the Secondary Master Cylinder, for reasons John has explained in his post above (reasons that are fully elaborated in the two scholarly articles that he posted links to), but then again, it could be a few other things, some of which are quite simple to solve.

The brake calipers on the ST are 'fully floating', in the sense that the piston only works on one of the two brake pads, and the entire caliper assembly slides laterally to apply equal pressure to the brake pad on the other side of the caliper. To work properly - and in your case, to release properly - the entire caliper assembly has to be free to slide back and forth on two pins that hold each caliper in place. Different problems can cause the calipers to not be able to slide freely, for example, lack of lubrication on the pins, dirt and crud getting into the pin assembly because rubber boots around the pins have deteriorated, or improper (usually, out-of-sequence) installation or re-assembly of the calipers.

So, I think you should first go looking for "mechanical" causes (calipers not sliding freely) before you go looking for hydraulic problems.

Along a similar "mechanical problem" line of thought, as John noted above, it is possible to get the position of the upper tang of the brake pads wrong when installing the pads, this because a little spring-like contraption at the upper end of the brake pad slips out of place when doing the re-assembly. If this happens, the pad will not be parallel to the caliper, and will not properly release when you release brake pressure. If left like this, the pad will wear unevenly.

Yet another possible mechanical problem is the free movement (pivoting) of the SMC about its pivot point. In this case, I'm not referring to how the internals of the SMC work, or whether they work or not, I'm referring to whether or not the SMC freely articulates back and forth. Improper assembly, lack of lubrication, too much torque applied to fasteners, deterioration of bearings and bushings, or damage to the fibre washer that is glued (by Honda) onto the front left fork where the SMC attaches can all impede smooth movement of the SMC body.

A final possible "mechanical" problem - although I suppose this also falls into the "hydraulic" category - is that one or more of the pistons in a caliper is binding and not free to fully release because of dirt and crud that has accumulated around the outer edge of the piston where it retracts into the caliper in the absence of pressure. Here's a couple of links that discuss solving stuck piston and stuck (non-floating) calipers, and how to clean those parts to solve that problem:

Left Front Caliper Slider Pins and New OEM pads on the rear problem. Larry's (@Igofar) trick of using a flat shoelace soaked in brake fluid to clean the outside of the three pistons in each caliper works really well, and is cheap to implement.

Do you have a Honda Service Manual? Although information posted here on the forum is a superb source of information about how things work, I have found that the instructions contained in the Honda Service Manual for assembly and disassembly of the brake components are very detailed, and I have also discovered (the hard way) that it is essential to follow the instructions - particularly the sequence of doing work - in the manual when servicing the brake system.

Michael
 
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Of course I am assuming that the front wheel has been installed correctly.
Igofar was last to work on it. It’s installed correctly. I’ve attached pics of the pads. Maybe you see something I’m not.
 

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It’s the A9 spring.
 

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Ok so here’s where we stand. I worked up till 7 then I had to go cook dinner. Pulled the front left and right. Removed the pads and hoses down the springs on the roof of the caliper and wiped it down. I extended the pistons for both the front grip and foot pedal and hosed down the pistons and housing for any gunk buildup. Reassembled the assembly and reattached. A quick spin around the cul-de-sac and so far it sounds (and feels) like I may have solved the issue. ran out of brake cleaner so I will need to get more tomorrow to finish the back. On a side note the neighbors got a chuckle at the naked 1300 riding around.

And for the record the whisperer can do no wrong.
 
I hate to bring this up....are you saying that you used spray brake cleaner to clean the caliper? :well1:
That is a No No :doh1: the brake cleaner spray may/could/and often will do more damage than good by swelling the o-rings and causing the pistons to drag. Not to mention, it will completely dry everything out....you guessed it, causing the pistons to drag :rofl1:
You want to clean the calipers/pistons with either brake Fluid or a gentle cleaner like simple green etc.
What did you do to that poor bike after I had it running so well?
A couple things that come to mind to check that nobody has seemed to mention yet, would be the guide dowels, and more importantly the rear brake caliper bracket.
Better yet, why don't you just call me on the :WCP1: or stop by and let Tom take a peek at it.
 
Sorry for the holdup here’s the Sunday update. Even after servicing the brake system the rear brake kept grabbing. The front finally started cooperating so I think it’s ok. Larry called at lunch and pointed me towards something I hadn’t even come across in my research. The bracket that holds the rear brake was bent. 43290-MCS-G01 When the SMC fails and the rear brake locks this bracket is aluminum and bends from the torque. Just ever so slightly but just enough to screw everything up. Of course the pistons were nasty from 76k miles of use so they have been stripped for cleaning. FYI when using air to release the pistons they will shoot out like a SpaceX Falcon 9. I will admit to being caught off-guard. So the bike is sitting disassembled for now until new seals and a bracket comes in.
@Igofar Explains it better than i do. See post #18.
 

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Hi Aniwack:

Thanks for getting back to all of us and explaining what you found. It's fascinating (and a bit frightening) to hear that the bracket that holds the rear brake assembly (the part number you referred to as 43290-MCS-G01) can bend. I never would have thought about that.

When the new part arrives, would you please post a picture of the new part beside the old (bent) part? Then the rest of us will know what to look for when we carry out similar service procedures.

Michael
 
Courtesy of @Igofar these are better pictures of when the rear brake bracket is bent what you’re looking for. By being just ever so out of alignment, you will suffer from brake dragging and the calipers not retracting. Compared to my photos, you can see how it takes looking through the bolt holes to see how the bracket has been torqued against.
 

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Just so folks are not confused with the pictures that aniwack posted let me explain....
These are just some random pictures of prior service jobs that have come through the garage.
I sent these to him to give him some ideas on what to look for and where.
He only posted one picture of the stopper bolt showing wear on the center, the other picture showed wear on just the end (tip) showing the tilt/bind etc.
The spring clip was just to point out the tabs being bent from wrong installation.
The flutes in the stopper plug hole show alignment issues etc.
The guide rod that was badly rusted (front caliper) was off another members bike here but I won't throw you under the bus :rofl1:
The important one that Michael asked to see are the 2nd and 4th pictures. Notice how the pressure of the caliper binding (smc locking up) presses the aluminum downward on the ride side arm, peening it and creating a gap, this gap then allows the pads to shift around under pressure and causes binding in the rear brake.
Hope this helps explain it better.
 
The guide rod that was badly rusted (front caliper) was off another members bike here but I won't throw you under the bus
I've had one of those so bad before now, that we had to drill it out, and machined a replacement on the lathe.

You're ok though, it wasn't even a Honda.

Glad OP is on the way to sorting things out.
 
Hi Aniwack:

Thanks for getting back to all of us and explaining what you found. It's fascinating (and a bit frightening) to hear that the bracket that holds the rear brake assembly (the part number you referred to as 43290-MCS-G01) can bend. I never would have thought about that.

When the new part arrives, would you please post a picture of the new part beside the old (bent) part? Then the rest of us will know what to look for when we carry out similar service procedures.

Michael
Considering that the greatest loads generated on the caliper bracket are encountered with a completely serviceable braking system I can't follow the explanation that a locked caliper bends the bracket or that this bracket is bent from locking up. The machined surfaces the retaining clip bears against are certainly worn but the forces exerted by the pads, the kinetic energy transmitted to the caliper and to the bracket are directly against the flat of the bracket 90 degrees to the pad ends and to the pin bolts, not to the gap between retainer and bracket. Follow the forces involved.

A locked and sliding tire has a lower coefficient of friction than a tire being braked at the limit and thus imposes less force into the bracket than a properly operating caliper applying braking forces to the limit of tire adhesion, where the forces peak. in 76,000 miles the caliper has likely applied maximum force to the bracket many times and Honda designed the bracket to not bend for the life of the bike and beyond.

What is the alternative if the bracket is indeed bent? Perhaps a dragging caliper thus superheats the bracket and warps it, or the machined surface of the bracket under the retaining clip never was square from brand new.
 
You really wouldn't be able to follow the explanation.....even if I showed you 7 rear brake caliper brackets in my bucket of shame, all with the same damage, to the same area, in every one of them then :rofl1:
 
You really wouldn't be able to follow the explanation.....even if I showed you 7 rear brake caliper brackets in my bucket of shame, all with the same damage, to the same area, in every one of them then
I don't think that Dave is questioning that the brackets are bent or that you corrected the problem by replacing the bracket as part of the repair. The question is what actually caused it to bend. Brute force alone doesn't seem likely. Force and heat might be.
I can't follow the explanation that a locked caliper bends the bracket or that this bracket is bent from locking up.
Curious that you write this Dave. I have been trying to answer the same question in my mind. Ever since Larry posted about this after he discovered a bent bracket for the first time I have been wondering what the root cause of the bent bracket might be. I have no doubt that these brackets are bent and that the bent bracket has been causing the problems. I am at a loss to understand how a dragging caliper due to a defective SMC could exert enough force to bend this bracket when a properly functioning system can repeatedly deliver peak braking forces and doesn't bend this bracket. It seems likely that it is the result of more than just force or just elevated temperatures. I have been wondering if it is the result of heat and force acting together. The bent bracket might be the result of multiple prolonged exposures to elevated temperatures while it is also being subjected to constant force, both of which are due to the dragging brakes.
If there is an instance of a bent bracket where there was never an issue of dragging brakes that could be an argument against the influence of elevated temperatures.

Good to know I am not alone in being confused.
 
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Honda just emailed me that 43290-MCS-G01 is on National Backorder and takes about a week to come over from the land of the rising sun. Avg retail is $75 for the bracket If you’re going to keep one on hand.
 
Considering that the greatest loads generated on the caliper bracket are encountered with a completely serviceable braking system I can't follow the explanation that a locked caliper bends the bracket or that this bracket is bent from locking up.
The last time the SMC failed I was on I-75 and the rear wheel locked. That scared the hell out of me when it skidded. The officer had to push on the SMC while I limped it to the right shoulder. I can see how it moved just enough up and forward to go out of alignment and cause the current problems.
 
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