Valve Clearance Inspection - R. side Cams not right?????

1129VLD said:

What do you mean?

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If the cam timing is off the pistons have a good chance of hitting the valves and bending them. If the bike was running when you started, than you need to review your procedure. Some where you are missing a step. Do you have the maintenance manual? Also take alook at Baker Boys pictures. Does your cams look like that. I am on a trip and do not have my manual with me so I don't want to lead you astray from memory. Good luck, hope you get it figured out.

The clearance I was referring to is between the cam and the top of the bucket ... I think we are talking about different things.

I do have a service manual and have been using it, along with GetSum's instructions. I'm going to go through the procedure a couple of more times before I reposition the right cams.

Just because you see the piston at the top of the cylinder right at the plug hole dont mean that it is on the compression stroke for that cylinder, that may mean that you could be at the end of the exhaust stroke. I really think that you are making an error as to which cylinder is in the compression stroke and besides if you can see the piston in the spark plug hole if you was to rock the crank clock wise a quarter of a turn you would either see no valves move or the exhaust valve closing as you turn the crank back to counter clock wise that is the tale tale sign if you are in compression stroke or exhaust stroke
Once you verify that you are in compression stroke of which cylinder you are checking just look at the cam postion and check your clearances.

maybe this cut away picture can help. study the picture of the two motors in the upper right hand corner

Yes, unless I'm not understanding something that diagram appears to represent the same thing as the diagrams on pages 3-10 and 8-4 of the service manual.

Here is my situation. I start at T1, the #1 piston at the top of the cylinder, the cam sprocket marks are as indicated in the service manual and the diagram (L-IN and L-EX to the outside of the sprockets on the the left side of the bike). Assuming that those cams and sprockets are installed correctly, that would mean that #1 cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke (correct??).

I then rotate the engine 90 degrees CCW to the T2 mark. Per the service manual I should be seeing R-EX and R-IN to the inside of the right side sprockets; I do not. I see R-EX and R-IN on the outside of the sprockets, as if the engine had been rotated 450 degrees, not 90 (as if I was ready to check cylinder #2 instead of #4).

So, anyway you look at it, something is wrong. Considering that the cams and T1 mark seem to be matching up correctly on the left side of the bike, I'm assuming that the left side is correct. But, the cams on both sides of the bike have been out in the past, so it is possible that the left side is incorrect.

NEW INFORMATION WHILE WRITING THIS POST ... I found the paper service records for the bike. I was incorrect, the PO did have two valve checks done, but no adjustments were made, so the right side cams have never been off the bike. But the left side cams have, at GruuvySTOC in March of 2009. The left exhaust valve for cylinder #1 was at .008 so we made an adjustment. I recall the timing chain got hung up after we installed the cams, and we had to rely on the T1 timing mark to get everything put back together. It is possible that we put the cams back in wrong, confusing TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder #1 and cylinder #3.

I just went out and went through the whole procedure again, this time finding T1 and #3 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke (as indicated by the position of the lobes on #3). The timing marks on the left side sprockets were correct for cylinder #3 (step 3). I then rotated the engine CCW for 90 degrees to T2; and the timing marks on the right side sprockets were correct for cylinder #4 (step 2). Rotated the engine 270 degrees and back to T1, and the timing marks are correct for cylinder #1 (step 1). Rotated the engine 90 degrees to T2; the timing marks on the sprocket are correct for cylinder #2 (step 4).

So, now it appears that it's the left side cams that are installed incorrectly. The only real way to confirm this is if I am able to determine if cylinder #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke without using the cams. Can anybody tell me how to do that?

A zero clearance motor means if the valves get out far enough of time with the rest of the moving parts like the pistons the valves get hit by the pistons and are bent. Very $$$$$$ repair.

It was easy for me to get a cam one tooth out of time when I did my valve adjustment. I had only removed the exhaust cam on that bank and of course marked everything to line it back up but never the less I did it. When I double checked everything I found my error and corrected it but on tooth off was easy to do and the engine would probably run and run well enough to not notice.

I wish I was there to see everything as I am sure this can be figured out. The crankshaft has to turn clockwise during the procedure. CW means looking between the forks back at the front of the motor and timing holes the ratchet handle moves counterclockwise, as from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock CCW is 90 degrees clockwise on the crankshaft (from #1 TDC to #4 TDC, T1 to T2), then ratchet moves from 6 o'clock CCW 270 degrees to 9 o'clock again. (#3 TDC, T2 to T1), then rachet moves from 9 o'clock CCW to 6 o'clock again for #2 TDC, T1 to T2).

1129VLD said:

NEW INFORMATION WHILE WRITING THIS POST ... I found the paper service records for the bike. I was incorrect, the PO did have two valve checks done, but no adjustments were made, so the right side cams have never been off the bike. But the left side cams have, at GruuvySTOC in March of 2009. The left exhaust valve for cylinder #1 was at .008 so we made an adjustment. I recall the timing chain got hung up after we installed the cams, and we had to rely on the T1 timing mark to get everything put back together. It is possible that we put the cams back in wrong, confusing TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder #1 and cylinder #3.

I just went out and went through the whole procedure again, this time finding T1 and #3 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke (as indicated by the position of the lobes on #3). The timing marks on the left side sprockets were correct for cylinder #3 (step 3). I then rotated the engine CCW for 90 degrees to T2; and the timing marks on the right side sprockets were correct for cylinder #4 (step 2). Rotated the engine 270 degrees and back to T1, and the timing marks are correct for cylinder #1 (step 1). Rotated the engine 90 degrees to T2; the timing marks on the sprocket are correct for cylinder #2 (step 4).

So, now it appears that it's the left side cams that are installed incorrectly. The only real way to confirm this is if I am able to determine if cylinder #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke without using the cams. Can anybody tell me how to do that?

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Find #2 TDC which should be T2 with piston at top of stroke with cams rotated fully away from buckets. The rotate crankshaft 270 degrees to bring T1 into view with piston at top of stroke.

I'm back at this tonight.

I started by assuming that the cams on the right side of the bike are in there correctly. I was mistaken that the cams on the right side of the bike have been off in the past ... they have not.

I set up as if I was checking the valve clearances for cylinder #2; T2 in the view hole and R-EX and R-IN lined up on the outside of the cam sprockets.

I rotated the crank 270 degrees CCW to T1. If all was as it should be, this should set up cylinder #1 at TDC on the compression stroke (correct?). I should see L-EX and L-IN lined up on the outside of the cam sprockets (correct?). Instead I see L-EX and L-IN lined up on the insides of the cam sprockets.

This a video I made illustrating what I am seeing (sorry it's so blurry).
[video=youtube;JfcI0tDoiPE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfcI0tDoiPE[/video]

Sooooo, is it fair to say at this point that the cams on the left side of the bike are not in there correctly?

How has your bike been running since you changed the shim back in 2009? Don't know what else to say other than I might just tear mine down to see what it does... it's due for a check anyway...

OK. It seems obvious the cam gears are off 180 degrees on the cam. I could see a camshaft out of time one tooth and the bike running but it would not run, or run well, with both LH camshafts out of time 180 degrees.

The cam gears are removable from the shafts and the mounting bolts are 180 degrees apart. If the shafts are not keyed to the gears it is possible the gears are off 180 degrees and the camshafts are correct. This would make the L IN and L EX marks be in the inside instead of the outside at #1 TDC. The gears can only go on the shafts two ways 180 degrees apart ( 2 mounting bolt holes in gears ). The Service manual on 8-10 suggests removing the gears from the shafts by virtue of detailing it in pictures. However the small print tells us removing the gears are not necessary when adjusting valves and I am sure most mechanics leave them on the shafts but maybe the dealer removed them then reinstalled them backwards. If as you say the valves are in spec for #1 & #3 at TDC for those cylinders then mark the orientation of the camshafts to the camshaft holder well and remove the gears and reinstall 180 degrees thus moving the L IN and L EX marks to the outside.

Attached are a couple of photos when I adjusted the valves on my bike on the left side.

The cams in the pictures are at #1 TDC position. Perhaps you can compare the position of the cam lobes from the picture to yours at what should be #1 TDC to determine if indeed the sprockets are the only thing that is out by 180?.

Since the engine runs, it can't have the cams 180degrees out. I was going to say this yesterday but decided not to add confusion as you wanted to go thru it procedurally again to ensure that you were seeing what you thought you were seeing.

At this point, it appears to me that one of two things are at play:
1) T1 / T2 timing ring is misaligned
2) Cam shaft sprockets have been misaligned on the cam shafts. (There's a writeup on the proper alignment in the service manual).

I don't know if #1 is possible, but #2 sure is.

Also some food for thought, Someone posted awhile back that since this engine's firing order is 1,4,3,2 that the right side engine as if you are sitting on the bike cylinders 2,4 that the cam shafts can be rotated 180 degrees to change the engine firing to 1,2,3,4 so how possible would your engine cam shafts be changed? Mark posted showing the lobes for that cylinder compression is the tale tale sign of that cylinder no questions asked, i dont see the need to have the t1 or t2 showing in the window if you are just doing the shims. The t1 and or t2 is just for reference but if you are building up the engine from a complete rebuild then yeah the t1 and t2 are what you need to make sure you have the exact timing but not for doing shims you just want the cam lobes away from the valves to check for the clearance. Also go and look and really study that picture (and download it to really enlarge it) of the cut away of that engine that i put a few posts back that as well should show with good reference where your cams should be and the cam gears and the two bolts of that cam gear to the cam shaft.

okmurdog said:

Attached are a couple of photos when I adjusted the valves on my bike on the left side.

The cams in the pictures are at #1 TDC position. Perhaps you can compare the position of the cam lobes from the picture to yours at what should be #1 TDC to determine if indeed the sprockets are the only thing that is out by 180?.

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An excellent illustration of what I am seeing. With L-IN and L-EX on the outboard side of the sprocket the the lobes on my bike are in the same position as the lobes in your picture; which is correct for checking the clearances for cylinder #1. My problem is that when my sprockets/lobes look like that, in sequence, I should have cylinder #3 lined up not Cylinder #1.

Even if I was to remove the sprocket from the cam and then reinstall the sprockets 180 degrees from where they are now, it still wouldn't solve the issue. The timing marks on the cams would be in sequence, but the lobes would not.

A this point I don't think that there is any doubt that the entire cam/sprocket assembly on the left side of the bike is 180 degrees off.

BakerBoy said:

<snip>
2) Cam shaft sprockets have been misaligned on the cam shafts. (There's a writeup on the proper alignment in the service manual).

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If that is the case, the bike came from the factory that way. The cams on the left side have only been off once, and we didn't take the sprockets off.

I don't think it is the sprockets for the reasons stated in the previous post.

rglgatortail said:

<snip> The t1 and or t2 is just for reference but if you are building up the engine from a complete rebuild then yeah the t1 and t2 are what you need to make sure you have the exact timing but not for doing shims you just want the cam lobes away from the valves to check for the clearance.

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And I think that is the root of my problem. During the last valve inspection (the inspection after the left cams were removed) I did not use the T1/T2 timing marks, I simply lined up the sprocket marks as they should be for checking a particular cylinder, checked the clearances and moved on. This time, using T1/T2 I can see that something is wrong.

Jeff when you took the cams off a groovy stock....did you have to switch spark plug wires to make it run??? If what gatortail is saying is right it's possible ti change the firing order.... and the bike still run. You would have to accommodate that with a wire change.

Jay, not only the spark wire, but the injector wires too, right?

So... you should be able to set the T1 mark and line up the cams in the correct position which should correct what you're seeing wrong on the 2/4 cylinders.

Once you do that, you should be able to go through the whole valve check procedure and verify the T1/T2 marks as well as all the sprockets are lining up correctly and the cam lobs are in the correct position to allow you to check the clearance.

I would take some pics before you do the correction just in case this was wrong from the factory.. but, I agree that it was probably messed up during the last valve change and since that was assembled wrong, then probably checked afterwards using the sprocket markings, the next valve check also 'looked' okay since the t1/t2 marks weren't used... as soon as you started using the t1/t2 marks along with the sprocket marks, THAT's when things looked wrong.

Why did this not cause more damage? I don't know enough about engines to say why this would not cause a lot of damage or just a rough running engine or any of that stuff.

Maybe someone has a pic of the left side cams removed so Jeff can verify they sprockets themselves are on the cams correctly.. that would be a very strange thing..

I know when we did Roseknights valve adjustment on the left side, I almost forgot to reset the T1 mark after checking cyclinder #4 so I was going to put the cams back in the wrong location, it's easy to do if you aren't paying attention..

A couple of folks have asked how the bike ran after the 3/09 valve clearance inspection (the inspection in which the left cams were removed). The bike ran fine, except for the loss of power/surging issue when really hot outside .. which others are dealing with also (regardless, that issue didn't develop until much later). I have always felt that my bike is a bit noisier and had less power than other ST-1300, but that is very subjective, so I don't know. I've never ridden another ST-1300 to compare it to. Also, as of the the 3/09 valve adjustment I had only had the bike for a couple of months .. so I didn't have the best reference point for comparing pre/post valve inspection.

MPG was typically ~36 - 38 in the city and ~42 on the highway in California.

STranger said:

Jeff when you took the cams off a groovy stock....did you have to switch spark plug wires to make it run??? If what gatortail is saying is right it's possible ti change the firing order.... and the bike still run. You would have to accommodate that with a wire change.

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Wouldn't matter. Both plugs spark simultaneously on each side but there is only one cylinder that has the proper air/fuel mixture in it ready to fire.

BakerBoy said:

Jay, not only the spark wire, but the injector wires too, right?

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I would think...


If you go ahead and futz with the cam position I would make sure to very carefully rotate the crank by hand after you are finished just to make sure you don't bend any valves. I just don't think that the engine would run well at all with the cams that far out of whack...