Blackstone oil report numbers discussion.

W0QNX

W0QNX

Blacksheep Tribal Member
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Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
3,066
Location
Pensacola, FL. USA
Bike
06/ST1300 19/R1250RT
I sent an oil sample off when my ST1300 turned over to 400,000 miles (discuss that over there) and on the sample report it's a bit not what I expected. When I first got the bike new in 2009 at 2,000 miles I went to Rotella T6 oil which I had been using for years in my old Honda Valkyries. Back then Rotella "kind of" said it was OK to use in motorcycles. Then in around 2016 17? they "changed the formula" to what I don't think anybody knows for sure but the motorcycle endorsement "kind of" went away. It still lists JASO MA and JASO MA2 on the label. No need to discuss the validity and certifications just we know it is there on the side of the oil containers.

Many people said the oil was no longer safe for wet clutches because they up'd the moly content to 68ppm. I kept on using as I didn't think that was too much for the clutch. So why is my report moly number only 1ppm? And I looked at another bikes oil report and it was only 4ppm using Rotella. I was surprised to see the number so low. Why isn't it 50 to 60ppm?

I don't see anything bad other than the low viscosity a bit below desired and that is probably because of my 10,000 mile oil change interval. Also comparing my bikes engine condition per the oil report, man I'm impressed! This ol Honda engine is long wearing machine.

400oilnn-jpg.327581


Other bike report I found has numbers higher on many things.


s1000rroil.jpg
 
WØQNX said:
I sent an oil sample off when my ST1300 turned over to 400,000 miles (discuss that over there) and on the sample report it's a bit not what I expected. When I first got the bike new in 2009 at 2,000 miles I went to Rotella T6 oil which I had been using for years in my old Honda Valkyries. Back then Rotella "kind of" said it was OK to use in motorcycles. Then in around 2016 17? they "changed the formula" to what I don't think anybody knows for sure but the motorcycle endorsement "kind of" went away. It still lists JASO MA and JASO MA2 on the label. No need to discuss the validity and certifications just we know it is there on the side of the oil containers.

Many people said the oil was no longer safe for wet clutches because they up'd the moly content to 68ppm. I kept on using as I didn't think that was too much for the clutch. So why is my report moly number only 1ppm? And I looked at another bikes oil report and it was only 4ppm using Rotella. I was surprised to see the number so low. Why isn't it 50 to 60ppm?

I don't see anything bad other than the low viscosity a bit below desired and that is probably because of my 10,000 mile oil change interval. Also comparing my bikes engine condition per the oil report, man I'm impressed! This ol Honda engine is long wearing machine.

400oilnn-jpg.327581


Other bike report I found has numbers higher on many things.


s1000rroil.jpg
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The loss of moly could be attributed to the type of moly in the oil. If it is MOs2 it can fall out of suspension and be filtered out. Other types of moly will stay in suspension. Some oil companies for high mileage oils will shy away from moly as some consider moly to increase engine deposits on pistons and ring lands. Borates are becoming more popular for friction and wear reducing additives and harmless in wet clutches.
 
I don't believe amounts of moly have anything to do with why Rotella is no longer your father's oil. The API formulation of motor oils changed to meet emission requirements for On Road diesels that came online in Dec of 2016 for 2017 model year IIRC. Someone else can look up the exact date. To meet the new standards many 2017+ On Road diesels were/are required to use catalytic converters to meet emissions and excessive amounts of ash present in exhaust gas are hard on cats thus preventing the manufacturers' ability to warranty them for the 100,000 miles or whatever the law requires. Ash comes from phosphate levels in oil (zinc). Thus the new formulation lowered the amount of phosphate ppm allowed in the oil. Rotella 15w40 and 5w40 and other diesel engine oils historically contained the highest amounts of zinc allowed in previous API standards and because of the anti-wear properties of zinc these oils gained their stellar reputation. IIRC the zinc ppm prior to 2017 was up to 1800 ppm and the new formula (API CK-4??) is less than 1200. The Rotella reputation remains but the oils have lost the highest anti-wear qualities we desired. Honda builds such good engines on the whole that any oil that meets the minimum standard and changed regularly will deliver long service life. Black Pearl is an excellent example.
 
With almost all oil additive packages is tailored to the oil supply, the 3 grades of oil need different additives to get it to meet their demands.
For instance the eastern grade needs more additives to bring the PH level to the same standards as western grade oil so looking at the additive package in the oil tells you what has been broken down or was not there in the beginning. That is why they list what to expect, as oil wears the additives break down and may not be readable.
The main complaint that we had found in industrial engines ( which are under heavier and different usage than motorcycles ) using the oil samples to judge when to change oil resulted in a much higher failure occurrences. The comparison is looser than my comparison is. So this can be a debatable observation.
Reading the samples most of what we looked for was what showed up that should not be there, like too much iron, copper, and silicon. In the bikes the components are different than what I dealt with but the basics are the same, to much showing up compared to the earliest sample will tell you what is happening inside.
And this is as far as I am going to go-- I am not going to start a oil discussion and will end my input now without meaning to make any recommendations to anyone.
 
motornut said:
With almost all oil additive packages is tailored to the oil supply, the 3 grades of oil need different additives to get it to meet their demands.
For instance the eastern grade needs more additives to bring the PH level to the same standards as western grade oil so looking at the additive package in the oil tells you what has been broken down or was not there in the beginning. That is why they list what to expect, as oil wears the additives break down and may not be readable.
The main complaint that we had found in industrial engines ( which are under heavier and different usage than motorcycles ) using the oil samples to judge when to change oil resulted in a much higher failure occurrences. The comparison is looser than my comparison is. So this can be a debatable observation.
Reading the samples most of what we looked for was what showed up that should not be there, like too much iron, copper, and silicon. In the bikes the components are different than what I dealt with but the basics are the same, to much showing up compared to the earliest sample will tell you what is happening inside.
And this is as far as I am going to go-- I am not going to start a oil discussion and will end my input now without meaning to make any recommendations to anyone.
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I take it you're involve with big engines. Do you put synthetic oil in them? I wouldn't think there would be east or north types of synthetic base.
 
Most manufactures weren't putting synthetic oils at the top of their recommendations at the time and I am not a fan of extended oil change intervals anyway. But this is my preference. since this can be a extended discussion that I personally don't want to get started, most of the riders take good care of their bikes by doing what they believe is the best way. No criticism or second guessing from me is going to change that and should not. The oils today are fantastic and outlasts my preferences, I am old school and comfortable with what I do, I choose to operate in my fashion because I don't want to analyze the longer change time, I like not having to think about the stuff. I know it is alright. That said I do not want to get a oil discussion started, they drive us all nuts and are everywhere, not just on this forum.
 
WØQNX said:
… Do you put synthetic oil in them? I wouldn't think there would be east or north types of synthetic base.
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I’m sure you know but might have forgotten that most 100% synthetic oils are now (cracked) petroleum based.

“Historically, it was widely accepted that only Group IV base oils made from PAOs were true “synthetics.” A famous lawsuit between Mobil and Castrol changed that. Mobil charged that Castrol was falsely marketing its Syntec motor oil as a 100% synthetic oil although it wasn't made from PAO base oils.

Mobil’s claim was based on results of independent lab testing that showed samples of Syntec it obtained as early as December 1997 contained 100 percent mineral oil. The two sides battled it out, but in a landmark 1999 ruling, the National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus ruled that Castrol Syntec, as then formulated, was a “synthetic” motor oil if it performed like a synthetic oil.”

blog.amsoil.com

How Much "Synthetic" Is In My Oil? - AMSOIL Blog

A basic understanding of the different base oils available and a few rules of thumb help you cut through the clutter and make a more informed synthetic-motor-oil purchase.
blog.amsoil.com blog.amsoil.com
 
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Rotella T6 0w40 VOA from 2018.

I am not interested in getting in to a pointless argument with anyone but Moly is a friction modifier, MoDTC does not cause wet clutch problems, MoS2 does. While Zinc is an anti wear additive.

IMG_1764.jpeg
 
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ASPC said:
Rotella T6 0w40 VOA from 2018.
I am not interested in getting in to a pointless argument with anyone but Moly is a friction modifier. While Zinc is an anti wear additive.
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Then why post a pointless statement? Wear is caused by friction so unless you can explain the difference between a modifier that isn’t an additive and an additive that isn’t a modifier; your post is meaningless (at least to me). :)

Tom
 
Zinc and Moly are both additives.

A surface may have a layer of Zinc followed by a relatively thin layer of Moly. Like water on ice. Zinc alone is more than adequate, the addition of Moly makes it a little better but it is not required.

I use Rotella T6 in my bike and truck.
 
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I first came across the OAP to test the oil in jet engines after every flight. They knew which components in the engine were made of what materials so if for instance the copper started to spike, they would replace that one part...not do a general overhaul of the entire engine. I'd be surprised if any of us can identify all the different materials found in the oil. We just know the number went up.

Many people said the oil was no longer safe...
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There's nothing like cold hard facts (Like 400,000 miles usage) to put a pin in someone's hot air balloon. :D

If I'm taking a 30,000 ft level interpretation of this, it appears that using diesel oil in a motorcycle engine is not detrimental. It might even be beneficial, based on the little wear and the miles ridden. Exceeding the manufacturer's oil change interval didn't make the engine blow up either. And whether the oil has actually been JASO certified or only has a sticker seems a moot point also. The proof is in how the oil performed.

I've been using Shell Rotella oil for years and a couple hundred thousand miles, and this just reinforces my belief that I'm doing the right thing.

Chris
 
St-Gerard said:
W0QNX have you ever sent in a sample of new oil, be interesting to see the difference?
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I've found a couple online that have sent in new oil "VOA" virgin oil analysis and my sample is very near just a bit lower. I saved this one but it's for 5W-40 not 15W-40. And of course my oil has sheared down from the 10,000 miles of use so the viscosity is way lower. ASPC posted a VOA above for 0w-40.

I looked all over today doing more in depth thought and searching. I know others don't care to use the oil but from what I see contents wise there isn't really much difference in all of the oil choices that are of the JASO MA2 standard. They all have detergent, antiwear, friction reducers and anti-foam mixes at close numbers. I was all those that say how much worse this "new blend" is than the old or others would post up some actual numbers instead of just comments. Even the Honda GN4 found below at the right most numbers of the lines. it has a lot of detergents it seems mainly.

So you don't have to look at mine above here are just a few to compare to this new sample shown below. I think these are all the ingredients in the blend. The metals would all be from engine wear and those numbers are all very low.

Mine.......................New
Calcium 2002.... 2140
Sodium 4...............5
Magnesium 77......86
Phosphorous 919........1151
Zinc 1045................1293
Molybdenum 1..........5
Boron 88................157
Silicon 5.............5

speedtested.jpg

From Bob's the oil guy forum:

1999 Honda ST1100
Water-cooled V4
Shared engine/trans. oil, wet clutch

Blackstone Labs

Oil...............Delo15W40.....GC0W30.........Honda 10W40
Filter............PL14610........3423 Bosch.....1536 Napa Gold
Total Miles....65,033..........73,008...........81,081
Miles on oil....8,070..........7,975.............8,073
Time on Oil.....3 1/2 mon.......5 1/2 mo....4 Mo
Make up oil......0................0................0

Aluminum.........11.............13...............12
Chromium.........1................1................1
Iron................27.............41..............25
Copper............4...............4................3
Lead...............3...............2................3
Tin.................0...............0................1
Moly..............231............36..............50
Nickel.............0...............0................1
Manganese......0..............1.................0
Silver..............0...............0...............0
Titanium..........0..............0................0
Potassium........0..............3................2
Boron..............74.............11.............124
Silicon.............13.............14.............12
Sodium.............5..............175...........58
Calcium............3471.........2290.........1988
Magnesium........10............456...........65
Phosphorus.......1211.........906..........815
Zinc.................1499.......1140.........1053
Barium.............0..............0..............0
Flashpoint F......405..........410...........390
Fuel................ Antifreeze........0................0.35..........?
Water.............0.................0..............0
Insoluables......0.1............0.3...........0.2
SUS Visc@100C..68.1........60.3.........60.8
TBN.................5.4..........7.2...........3.6
 
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Have to aggree with the lab, your engine is in good shape. Follows my advice to non mechanically talented persons, KEEP IT FULL AND KEEP IT CLEAN, planning to add ride or drive it often and long.
 
St-Gerard said:
Have to aggree with the lab, your engine is in good shape. Follows my advice to non mechanically talented persons, KEEP IT FULL AND KEEP IT CLEAN, planning to add ride or drive it often and long.
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Must have missed the "10,000 mile oil change interval". Raymond's advice would most likely be: KEEP SOME IN IT AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. :rofl1:

Tom
 
Raymond- you are the Elvis Presley- the King of the ST world and with the help of Colonel Tom Parker (Padden) I know you will go great distances :D
I’m looking forward to hearing about the 500,000 mile mark .
 
@W0QNX I just want to say thank you for making what I think is probably the most important contribution to the ST1300 world. By demonstrating how the ST1300 is capable of 400K miles or more with just basic maintenance and good quality oil. Thank you for that. In this bike world you deserve to be famous, if you are not already.
 
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