Darksiding - One riders story.....

Ltimb

Ltimb

Joined
May 9, 2014
Messages
118
Location
Minneapolis, mn
Darksiding - One riders story.....

Pre-Purchase: I'm an occasional rider, only racking up 16,000 - 18,000 miles a year on my bike. I live by the mighty Mississippi River and am close to the bluffs of se Minnesota and western Wisconsin. This area holds many many twisty roads that I'm not shy about playing hard. For the last 2 summers I've also added an additional dynamic with a pillion rider that loves to go. We both ride the twisties and do regular weekend runs down the river toward St. Louis, run over to Green Bay and play around Door county, point it north and see Lake Superior and last summer we had a cabin for a week along Chief Joseph Highway as we explored the Yellowstone area... This years trip will include the Smoky Mountains
Being my pillion is a woman I also needed to add a Bushtec trailer to carry the kitchen sink. (Credit she is learning we don't need the double sink, although we added a Kamp-Rite Cot Tent that will be mounted to the top).. Additional background data, I occasionally take an advanced riding school run by a retired professional racer that teaches you how to go around a closed 1+ mile with 18 turns fast.
Last years upgrades included a Race-Tec Gold Valve Kit with RT Hi-Performance Springs and a G3-S Custom Series Rear Shock. I’m not saying this to brag I’m giving you relevant information and that I’m not one to F-around.. Many other mods but are not relevant to the handling…
Tires: Been running T30 EVO GTs for several changes and had settled into using them exlusevely. I change my own tires and run Counteract balancing beads to keep them balanced.. Typical to get 10-12,000 out of the front and 7-10,000 out of the rear… In this area our roads aren’t too tough on tires as the majority are fairly smooth tar, no chips and a little concrete here and there.. We also don’t get the extreme hot pavement that many of you enjoy and I enjoy many miles riding in cooler temperatures of 35 to 55 degrees..
So why the change? Well as we were getting closer to our Yellowstone trip last year I had 2-3,000 miles on a fresher set but knowing we would rack up 5,000 or so miles on the trip I decided it better to toss on a new set rather than worry I’d be riding on thin skins the last several miles. Come on really?
As my riding style is evolving from weekend trips into cross country exploring (and have my eyes on a multi-day rally or two) the mileage limitations became a weak point in my set up. So I looked at data and used my hyper sensitive COMMON SENSE to decide that double darksiding was the way to go. Yes there are differences in tire structure but my common sense derived that these differences would never come into play in the real world… Hell if others are so concerned with safety and differences they would/should never ride a motorcycle. Case in point, every bike should have 2 disk ABS front brakes and any only having 1 non-ABS is illegal. Sounds kinda silly doesn’t it? My common sense tells me the safety factor between a MT & CT is minuscule compared to the safety factor between 1 and 2 ABS disk brakes, so your safety factor (crash and burn cry) is invalid…
So decision was made to D-Darkside (cue the eerie music).. So I went to the source and copied what the experienced veterans did (Thanks and you know who you are).. So a GYTT and BT45 was ordered.. Installation was semi-painless and after a little work, I am (cue eerie music again) DARKSIDED..
Test Ride: I pull out of my shop and I hear this bike destroying scraping clatter… Ahhhhhh, I did read the deep tread of the BT45 might pick up rocks and might scrape the inside of the front fender and I have class 5 from the shop to the driveway of 30 feet or so….. first panic averted..
Pull down the drive and turn on road, hmmm kinda feels funny, almost like the tire was low so stopped and checked. Nope all is good so off I went. Now I did notice a slight difference in turning characteristics through the first couple corners. Not good, not bad just different. I know you’re suppose to get 50 miles or so in to scuff the tires but who’s got that kind of patience, so after 5 miles I get to my first casual twisty…. I enter the first turn, do my shoulder shift, look through the turn, roll the throttle on and carve… I exit the turn, straighten up and look to the heavens with a thank you as I didn’t crash and burn like so many though I would…. OK that last bit was an embellishment as I could give a damn about what the naysayers say and I trust myself, my bike and the veterans that have forged this endeavor before me… Next turn, same thing, next turn, same thing, well you get the picture…. So what was all this tire deference BS so many were talking about? Well the safety factor I already covered so here is my take on riding difference… IF you rider straight in the saddle with a death grip on your bars you will notice the bike will float (Best way I can describe the characteristic) of wandering a little higher in the arc of your turn. Now I’m sure over time that that will replace your current typical and it will be the normal for you… BUT if you ride properly and shift your weight and look into the turn (weight shift doesn’t have to be hanging off your seat, just shifting your shoulders and move your head instead of just turning your head) these tires will give you the confidence of a MotoGP Racer… OK maybe another slight embellishment but I really felt as secure if not more that a new set of standard MT…
NOW THE FUN BEGINS: I do a casual 100 miles for proper scuffing, pick up the misses and head to the track. IT’S DATE NIGHT at ZARS.. ZARS stands for Zalusky Advanced Riding School… http://www.ridezars.com/ …. This is no parking lot cone chase, this is 100mph back stretch speed around a 1-miles plus track with 18 or so corners… Well I’m not shy about pushing the limits, just ask the 10 guys that carried my bike out of the gully on The Dragon (guess how I know about single and double front end disk brakes.
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:))…. So without further a due we sign our life away, have a pretrack classroom session and hit the ignition switch… Total time on the track was 40 plus miles so doing the math thats about 40 laps with 18 turns for about 720 left and right hand times my new tires were put to the test.. And when I say test, we got to the point of both of us leaning into the turns and still scraping pegs doing anywhere from 15-30mph when I was wearing metal away…
My Take on track night: ZERO NADDA NOTHING different from running it with MTs. In fact this may be psychological but I felt MORE confident as the tire felt VERY sticky… Meaning it performed exactly like I would expect a new MT tire to perform…
So to wrap this up, it felt smoother riding 2 up as it absorbed or made my bike absorb rough roads better. Rear braking felt stronger with more rubber on the road. I like the safety factor of a thicker caracas between the road and the air inside my tire. I like not having to worry about a thinning tire on trips. For my purpose of 2-up trailer pulling road eating mileage this will be it….. Goodyear A/Ssurance TripleTred A/S Radial - 205/50R17 93V Battlax BT45H 130/70H-18
 
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Thanks for the write up. For some reason I've been hesitant about going Dark on the ST. Ive done it on big cruisers and touring bikes so I'm not new to it. I'm needing new tires soon, just trying to figure out what I'm going to try.
 
This review begs the question. Do motorcycle tires provide better traction for racers? Would they not benefit from increased mileage, traction, etc. in a long race? They have to have tried car tires - maybe even slicks. So what is the answer? Are CT good enough for 90% of us and the world class racers need that extra few percent? Are they missing something? I find that last comment hard to believe.
 
SMSW said:
This review begs the question. Do motorcycle tires provide better traction for racers? Would they not benefit from increased mileage, traction, etc. in a long race? They have to have tried car tires - maybe even slicks. So what is the answer? Are CT good enough for 90% of us and the world class racers need that extra few percent? Are they missing something? I find that last comment hard to believe.
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Will never happen... one word - 'sponsors' - they sell more expensive mc tires so it would be self-defeating to then promote some type of car tire in a race.
 
SMSW said:
This review begs the question. Do motorcycle tires provide better traction for racers? Would they not benefit from increased mileage, traction, etc. in a long race? They have to have tried car tires - maybe even slicks. So what is the answer? Are CT good enough for 90% of us and the world class racers need that extra few percent? Are they missing something? I find that last comment hard to believe.
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Why does it beg the question? I thank you for comparing me to a world class racer. I thought I was clear that for MY purpose and test it there was no perceived difference. If you have to ask why pro racers don't use them then I can't help you with that as I don't have the time to educate you. Really it is just COMMON SENSE... Again when I was on the track, carrying a pillion, I felt I had as much traction and they performed NO different then I would have expected a MT to do. Yes I've run the same track with MTs....
 
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Ltimb said:
Why does it beg the question?
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For me, it's a screaming, why don't the pros run on CT's? Everything I read here says they are the equal - no, better than bike tires in terms of grip and durability. Yet MCN and other writers - I understand for liability reasons - say they cannot endorse this practice. Most of the guys who write about darksiding here seem to me to be good riders, some are very, very good, but mostly LD types not really interested in scrubbing as much rubber off their tires in as short a period of time as possible. You are the first to really write about putting CT's to the test on a track, and you described some hard, near the limit for you with a passenger riding. That speaks volumes about their suitability on a vehicle 'for which they were never designed'.

Years ago single handed sailors in races sailed the daylight hours, then they would heave to and sleep the night away, drifting with the currents. Then, better sail setting and wind vanes (self steering) and a brave guy or two sailed all day and all night, catnapping. Of course they won hands down over everyone else who sailed for 14 hours and slept the rest of the time heaved to. Today every long distance cruising and racing sailor uses self steering and most sail around the clock. Now we have car tires providing similar technological benefits on bikes. Why doesn't some pro biker use car tires and skip a tire change and win the race? There are big bucks at stake here. Or, maybe car tires simply do not provide the handling world class racers need at their (the pro racers') limits. I don't know. But I'm asking.
 
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SMSW said:
For me, it's a screaming, why don't the pros run on CT's? Everything I read here says they are the equal - no, better than bike tires in terms of grip and durability. Yet MCN and other writers - I understand for liability reasons - say they cannot endorse this practice. Most of the guys who write about darksiding here seem to me to be good riders, some are very, very good, but mostly LD types not really interested in scrubbing as much rubber off their tires in as short a period of time as possible. You are the first to really write about putting CT's to the test on a track, and you described some hard, near the limit for you with a passenger riding. That speaks volumes about their suitability on a vehicle 'for which they were never designed'.

Years ago single handed sailors in races sailed the daylight hours, then they would heave to and sleep the night away, drifting with the currents. Then, better sail setting and wind vanes (self steering) and a brave guy or two sailed all day and all night, catnapping. Of course they won hands down over everyone else who sailed for 14 hours and slept the rest of the time heaved to. Today every long distance cruising and racing sailor uses self steering and most sail around the clock. Now we have car tires providing similar technological benefits on bikes. Why doesn't some pro biker use car tires and skip a tire change and win the race? There are big bucks at stake here. Or, maybe car tires simply do not provide the handling world class racers need at their (the pro racers') limits. I don't know. But I'm asking.
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One simple answer is weight... Also as you push the limits in racing there will be differences in performance, that is why they run racing tires and not street tires... I really don't think most riders come anywhere close to the limit when riding in public let it be a CT or MT or racing tire on their bike. I had the opportunity to run on a predictable clean track so I could lean to the limits and scrape pegs... Now if it were a road racing track with 150mph turns one may realize the limits a CT has where as a MT would not falter. But reeling back to reality, I don't think there are many circumstances that a MT has much of an advantage... Think about the times your tire has gotten thin. Seems previously most of my tires were changed well beyond a safe tread limit in the rain... Or the time I road down that dirt road and my bike was all over the place. Or the time my misses packed 2 kitchen sinks and more than likely went past the weight recommended while towing a trailer...Instances of safety like these were key decisions in running darkside...
Additionally, The track experience was to educate ourselves on proper technique. I've done it solo before but the 2-up was an invaluable experience. Highly recommended for anyone and the knowledge gained will make us so much safer on the road.... The testing of the tires was just a bonus but what better way to push the limits in a controlled setting...
 
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jonjonboo said:
I have to put all this right where Mellow did---MONEY!
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Ok, Ltimb pretty much answered my question. But I have to believe that if car tires on a bike outperformed bike tires on the racetrack, several things would happen. 1. Some enterprising pro racer would find a way to run them and win. 2. More than one tire mfr would start producing car tire profiles for bikes, label them as bike tires, and make lots more money. 3. A governing body would outlaw car tires for racing under the guise of 'safety' if they gave the user in #1 too much of an advantage. 4. Said rule banning car tire profiles would likely go away as racers clamored for them.
 
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SMSW said:
Ok, Ltimb pretty much answered my question. But I have to believe that if car tires on a bike outperformed bike tires on the racetrack, several things would happen. 1. Some enterprising pro racer would find a way to run them and win. 2. More than one tire mfr would start producing car tire profiles for bikes, label them as bike tires, and make lots more money. 3. A governing body would outlaw car tires for racing under the guise of 'safety' if they gave the user in #1 too much of an advantage. 4. Said rule banning car tire profiles would likely go away as racers clammered for them.
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Like the open banter but no one ever said or implied that a car tire would outperform a MT on a racetrack. And common sense says it shouldn't.... I did say for my test (On a racetrack) I couldn't tell the difference... That being said, I think a CT has several advantages over a MT for my use...
 
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I scraped my first peg the other day since I went Darkside, kinda surprised me, the ST didn't care......
 
I have been double dark for 25k miles, just under a year. Fascinating track research. I would love to get a pro racer who can take a tire past the edge and back to do back to back laps MC vs CT. Just curious how far apart they are on a perfect road surface at the absolute edge. I am sure the MC would outperform just interested in the data. Loving double dark.


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I ran a Michelin Exalto car tire on the FJR for 40,000 miles, in all conditions and many types of roads, lots of hard twisties. From my experience of pushing it to the limits, you can lean a car tire over as far as you dare and it will stick like glue. Excellent in the wet. In that sense, I'd say it stuck better than most of the m/c tires I had up to that point. Many who followed me were amazed at what I put that tire through. The real issue is one of turn-in effort in the twisties, and on the track, and transitions back and forth would be a bit more tiring over a longer day or race. For that reason, a bike with sport tires on a track would win out in a race. That's my spin....
 
Racing is much more controlled that street bikes. They're limited by rules as to what they can have or use.

As for some tire company making "car" tires for bikes, I don't think they want to deal with the liability.
 
40 years ago my boss told me to never use a car tire on a motorcycle because the rubber compound was softer and provided better traction. But since then the "rubber" compound has been greatly improved by the manufactures adding fine silica (sand) and other changes. Silica makes the tire harder and it improves traction and it makes the tire last longer. This is why modern tires breaks the old "rule".... I have been using CT's on the back of my ST1300 for over 60k miles and I will not go back to a rear MCT.

It is greed, lawyers and fear that usually prevent progress.....
 
Great write up. I understand the track test. Ya, that would be the ticket, but running car tires on a high performance bike I don't think will cut the mustard. Lean angles are allot more and IMO you'd loose the rear in a fast hard turn. I've done about 30 track days myself. I might lean a little harder (no pun intended....maybe) on looking into the Dark Side. Ltimb, can ya get a knee with this thing? Haven't been up to trying that yet. Haven't gotten my pegs yet, but I'm not trying. One more question, what tire pressures are you running?
 
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