Helmets Is your Helmet Safe???

I have to ask. Did the helmet really fail? Or, did it do it's job?

I know very little about the impact and I wasn't there so these are typical armchair quarterback comments that are not worth much.

But, the function of the helmet is obviously to absorb as much of the initial impact force as possible. Based on the description of the accident, it sounds like it did that?

However, if it was pulled off, it could be there was so much force involved that is wouldn't matter how tight it was. Possibly, it was a good helmet, it was fitted properly, it was snug. Perhaps, given the angle at which it was pulled off, the straps and attachment points still provided some absorption of the forces involved.

I'm not defending the helmet, I don't have a modular helmet and I don't have an HJC, I wear a shoei RF-1000.

With ALL due respect, is it possible that if the helmet did NOT come off there could have been a situation where a broken neck would have occurred?

Again, I'm not making excuses for the helmet design or brand, just trying to look at this from all angles.
 
An acquaintance, in the science field, has a saying......."anecdote is not the plural of data...."
We all know or have heard of people either being killed or not, injured or not, helmet or not, etc. I don't think helmet choice should be made on anecdotal evidence.
What is very good about the discussion, and associated articles, is that they show that things are not static and that testing procedures and standards are being examined and changed as sufficient data is accumulated. A slow process to be sure but I think I would rather have a slow, methodical process involved rather than a knee jerk response that we so often get.
Snell, ECE, DOT, whatever. The bigger issue is helmet usage, not what standard the helmet is held up to (I think my English teacher just rolled over in her grave!)

Rod
 
Would those same temple injuries have happened in a FF helmet under the same exact conditions? Who knows.

I know of 3 people that have had some serious on/off road encounters with modulars on... they are all still talking today :bow1:

The two big things I look at in a modular is the latch and the pivot mechanism... how are they made, how will they hold up if something bad happens :eek::

I think the biggest thing you can do to help your odds is WEAR a helmet... period :bow1:
 
Mark,
His contention is that decisions should not be made on the evidence of one incident or anecdote (singular) but rather should be made on evidence of multiple, repeatable, facts or data (plural). In other words, multiple anecdotes (which occur in uncontrolled environments) are not a substitute for data.
Rod
 
:plus1:Very good topic Roamer and thanks for bringing it up here. I am in no way trying to be a monday morning quarterback as I was not at the crash in the article nor was I involved in anyway, just some thoughts kicking around my head after a 12.5 hour shift at the hospital so if I seem like I am rambling, forgive me..:D

Wish the rider involved in that crash a speedy recovery!!!

As a Trauma RN at a Emeregency Dept/Trauma Center I have taken care of quite a few motorcycle crash patients. I have not had a patient who has been wearing a flip-front helmet so I have no experience with them and I wear a Shoei TZ-R fullface. The one thing I do know is that a DOT or SNELL helmet is designed to stay on the riders head from start to finish, meaning it should not come off for any reason unless it is physically removed by someone. To read the part about the helmet being found about 15 feet from the rider is very alarming!

The only things that come to mind about the possible cause of the helmet coming off of the rider is human error from being worn incorrectly, total catostrophic failure of the hinges which caused the helmet to be released from the riders head or a combination of a hinge failure and the riders head being flexed forward while the helmet was being contacted from the back causing it to "roll off" the riders head during the crash. I am sure there quite a few more variables involved with that scenario but those are the ones that just popped into my head.

I was actually interested in trying on a Nolan 103 Motorrad but I think I will hold off for now until more data is available regardingthe hinge mechanisms.

I did do some searching regarding helmets and found this article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_helmet
It has some interesting links at the bottom of the page for further information.


Ride Safe..... :03biker:
 
drrod said:
Mark,
His contention is that decisions should not be made on the evidence of one incident or anecdote (singular) but rather should be made on evidence of multiple, repeatable, facts or data (plural). In other words, multiple anecdotes (which occur in uncontrolled environments) are not a substitute for data.
Rod
Click to expand...

Exactly. This is why I choose to wear a Snell approved helmet (Shoei X-11), because they have analyzed the data available for MC crashes and devised series of tests towards protecting your head from the impacts likely to occur. Since modulars don't pass the Snell certification. I won't buy or wear one. DOT standards are like most other gov't standards, the absolute minimum required; kinda like their bumper standards for cars, and most cars don't meet that standard when independent testing done. Ask yourself if your DOT helmet would, since it is not required to be independently tested.
 
You can take all the data in the world, but every individual case is different. Fitting of any helmet is the number one thing; if your top of the line helmet is loose, it will not protect you as much as if it is the right fit.
I think that, how you hit, what you hit, at what angle, what shape you are in and luck all are factors in the outcome.
A good fitting helmet, hitting it square on, not at an offset angle or "face" first, good shape and a good dose of luck, saved my life when I hit the animal at 70 MPH. I proceeded to hit pavement after that; gouged the chin bar and scraped the top corner of the helmet. At one point, not sure when, the visor and attach couplings popped off. The top vent was also torn off (found moose hair in the hole). I did get a huge concussion and remained goofy for some time, I am still struggling with memory issues, but that helmet saved my life. I should be able to regain function and strength in my hand after a year of therapy, but things could have been much worse.
No matter what your choice of helmet, FF or flip, get fitted properly.

Stay healthy, stay lucky and ride!!
JD
 
No helmet will protect in every conceivable accident. Doesn't matter if it's a 10,000 formula 1 racing helmet, or a $10 puddin bowl. There will always be some level of impact, especially if there are multiple impacts to the same part of the helmet, where it will fail. (That said, I rather have the F1 helmet than a puddin' bowl, but for street use the F1 helmet is probably too stiff.)

Without knowing the specifics of a crash, it's nothing but speculation as whether the helmet "failed," whether it went way beyond what anyone would rationally expect, or something in between.

In the "Dennis" accident under discussion, if the helmet came off his read with the d-rings and strap intact, then it didn't fit right. Period. Either it was too big, the strap was too loose, or the shape was not right for his head (or some combination of the above). Or, the helmet is so grossly mis-designed that it can rotate off the head even when properly fitted and strapped, but I find that hard to believe.

Even with the chin bar of my Shoei flip-face raised, I can't get the helmet to rotate off my head.
 
I only viewed the opening post in Fjroamer's linky, but learned more about the recently discussed incident than I had seen thus far.

Without speculating about Dennis' incident, I can say from decades of emergency services and riding two wheeled machines, it's not unheard of to lose helmets, shoes, other STuff, or other STories of being ejected from vehicles during an accident. The kinetic energies and velocity or amazing. I know little of physics, but I've seen STuff travel some diSTance. Headlights, child seats, or whatever often keep moving. Perhaps people have seen scenes where a pedeSTrian was hit...and the shoes remained in place of impact?

So while this incident will be inveSTigated as in other mishaps, I STIll say some form of brain bucket (even the ten dollar bowl; I loved that one) might be better than no helmet? I even wore my fireguy helmet recently (in the "Vespa STory") because it's all I had.

Beyond this perspective, it makes sense to use approved items yes, and also consider replacing them once they've had an impact or when the insides break down from wear, like Police body armor seems to do.
 
slammr said:
Exactly. This is why I choose to wear a Snell approved helmet (Shoei X-11), because they have analyzed the data available for MC crashes and devised series of tests towards protecting your head from the impacts likely to occur. Since modulars don't pass the Snell certification. I won't buy or wear one. DOT standards are like most other gov't standards, the absolute minimum required; kinda like their bumper standards for cars, and most cars don't meet that standard when independent testing done. Ask yourself if your DOT helmet would, since it is not required to be independently tested.
Click to expand...

Have you ever seen the Motorcyclist test and analysis of helmets and helmet standards? Prior to the 2010 standard, the Snell requirements, especially for medium and small helmets, actually result in more force on the riders head than the DOT or ECE standards. Snell actually modified the 2010 standard so it conforms more closely to the ECE.

The big problem with DOT isn't the standard, it's the lack of independent testing. But if you buy from a large, established company, I think you can be confident they really meet the standard.

Even Snell doesn't test every helmet, obviously, so you're dependent on the vendors QC to ensure your helmet is the same as the ones Snell tested.

FWIW, I have two helmets. An Arai Snell 2005 certified helmet, and a Shoei Multitec flip face DOT helmet. Do I think the Arai is probably safer, in more situations? Yes, probably. Do I think that, in most accidents, the Shoei will probably protect me as well? yes. Is either one way better than a $10 novelty helmet. You betcha.
 
Sure, now youse guys post this. I just got my HJC flip-front this month (for a good price a New Enough. :D) I like it so far.
 
Here are my rankings for helmet effectivness. I do not claim that this is based on anything but my own opinion and belief.

1. Good quality full face helmet. This is what I use exlusively.

2. Modular helmet.

3. Half-helmet like the cops used to wear.

4. Beanie helmet - Really, whats the point? I don't see how these can be legal in helmet law states.

5. No helmet at all. I used to ride this way but I was young and invincible.

Larry
 
Blue STreak said:
Have you ever seen the Motorcyclist test and analysis of helmets and helmet standards? Prior to the 2010 standard, the Snell requirements, especially for medium and small helmets, actually result in more force on the riders head than the DOT or ECE standards. Snell actually modified the 2010 standard so it conforms more closely to the ECE.

......
Click to expand...


Every Shoei helmet I've seen meets DOT and Snell requirements. I've never seen a Snell approved helmet that doesn't meet DOT requirements, so I have to question your statement. If fact, the info I received, from a very knowledgable and long time racer, was that DOT allowed 4 times greater force to the head.
 
There's an article on Mark Lawrence's Calsci site about flip up helmets - Nolan - & anecdotal evidence from a buddies crash. Its a story that's been on his site for several years so most have likely seen it.

FWIW ... Click
 
I'm in the market for a replacement helmet and one of the issues besides fit I have not seen mentioned is helmet weight. Take a moment and think about how much potential energy sitting on your head in the shape of a helmet your neck must contend with in the event of a crash. My current helmet weighs 4 lbs 1oz or 1850grams, as much as the lighter flip-front or modular helmets so I am anxious to reduce that weight as much as possible. Hence, the modular helmets are not in the picture for me.

Comfort and proper fit are the other key ingredients and I think if a helmet is comfortable to wear then it can be a bit on the snug side for proper fit and still be wearable for a full day. After trying on every helmet I can find in my local area, the Arai seems to fit the best, is most comfortable and is much lighter than the one I'm wearing now, about 500grams lighter. My goals were (not in order): better visibility, higher quality, lighter weight, easy to wear eyeglasses, removable liner, great ventilation and minimal fogging. I believe I met most of those requirements in the Corsair-V. webbikeworld has some great reviews on helmets: http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/motorcycle-helmets.htm worth looking through, unfortunately the Corsair-V is too new.

One of the more disappointing facts I learned through reading all this is the DOT standard being more voluntary and "self-policing" than mandatory. We have all witnessed how self-policing works on Wall Street (don't want to go down that road right now), so for something more obscure as motorcycle safety helmets and unprovable claims, I have come to rely on Snell certification, even for its flaws the certification is more tangible.
 
eb-larry said:
Here are my rankings for helmet effectivness. I do not claim that this is based on anything but my own opinion and belief.

1. Good quality full face helmet. This is what I use exlusively.

2. Modular helmet.

3. Half-helmet like the cops used to wear.

4. Beanie helmet - Really, whats the point? I don't see how these can be legal in helmet law states.

5. No helmet at all. I used to ride this way but I was young and invincible.

Larry
Click to expand...

1. Bought my first full faced helmet back in early 80's Bell Star II. Used full face from then until I bought my first modular in 06.

2. Now have a Shoei Multitec and love it! Going to go to Polamar with my son tomorrow morning and the modular will be great! As I get motion sickness going around the curves, I'll be able to OPEN it up and get more air! How many of you can say you get motion sickness on a motorcycle? :eek:4:

3. Not sure what the difference in a "half helmet" and "open faced". But Open face is what I started out with and rode with for years.

4. Beanies? No thanks!:nanana1:

5. No Helmet? You got to be kidding, right? Well, in my youth and even up to my upper 30's (before the helmet law was passed) I would ride without a helmet. Not anymore though! :noway
 
I did a severe test on a Nolan, here is what I wrote in 2006

I stiff do not know what happened to me. I was riding behind the group and was not moving at a fast pace. The curve to the left was mild to moderate and from what I remember the entry was just like every other curve. Good pavement, dry, no debris. Mid curve for some reason the bike stood up. I did not change power settings, touch the brakes or make any control input, it just stood up, I got it leaned back over but by then I was off the right side, no shoulder and then into the ditch. COuld not get any movement back to the left and the angle of the ditch was forcing me to the right, braking was non existant on the grass and the next thing I knew was that I was lying on my back in a briar patch about 2 feet past the bike , so if I could have rasied my head at that point the bike was in front of me. I do not know how long I was out but I do not think it was long.

Lots of pain in between my shoulderblades and along my back, all the wind knocked out of me. Bystanders started showing up but non could get to me in brush. I could move everything so after a few tries I got on my hands and knees and crawled to the clear area on the ditch where I stayed until EMS got me. Lots of X-rays in Brookhaven and a few CT's and I was cleared for any fractures. Lots of severe muscle tearing and bruising in my upper back making it very painful to move around even 7 days later.

Gear Report

SOme questions about the Nolan. It sounds from bystanders like I hit a reasonanbley sized scrub tree and broke it and then a second stopped us. The Nolan took a gigantic blow on the right side. No penetration or deformation. The bruise on the right side of my face and the black eye matches with the section just above the removeable cheek pad. The hinge on the Nolan is further back. The contact area is thinly padded but I think matches what my Full Face where at that location. The right side release latch is smashed in and the red plastic portion is torn off but the latch held. The face shield actually broke at the hinge on the opposite side from the impact. I have a great bruise on the right side of my neck where the cover for the chin strap lies against my neck. My nose was also bleeding for a little while but I can't see where I hit it in the helment.

I feel like the Nolan did an excellent job, I bought another 100E and just added a Nolan 102.

I have seen full face Shoie and Arai that our Coronor's office has kept as evidence from fatality crashes as well,

Every impact is unique, every load is different. From the way the FJR forum guys post looks, the helmet was not fitted well or the strap was too loose. If you look at the pics on the CalSci site, it is a miriacle that the rider was not dead.

Chris
 
SupraSabre said:
1. Bought my first full faced helmet back in early 80's Bell Star II. Used full face from then until I bought my first modular in 06.

2. Now have a Shoei Multitec and love it! Going to go to Polamar with my son tomorrow morning and the modular will be great! As I get motion sickness going around the curves, I'll be able to OPEN it up and get more air! How many of you can say you get motion sickness on a motorcycle? :eek:4:

3. Not sure what the difference in a "half helmet" and "open faced". But Open face is what I started out with and rode with for years.

4. Beanies? No thanks!:nanana1:

5. No Helmet? You got to be kidding, right? Well, in my youth and even up to my upper 30's (before the helmet law was passed) I would ride without a helmet. Not anymore though! :noway
Click to expand...

OK, I forgot open face helmets. I would place them below modular helmets but above half-helmets. By the way, what I mean by a half helmet is one that covers your head down to the tops of your ears or so. Would usually have vinyl or leather covering your ears.

I don't think that any of this is earth shattering information. It just seems obvious to me that a solid full face helmet provides more protection than a modular which is better than an open face and so on. It's all about the level of risk each of us is willing to tolerate. I know I should be ATGAT but sometimes I am not.

Larry
 
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