Not Understanding Fiche for Front Brake Caliper

jfheath

John Heath
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Mar 18, 2006
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Location
Ilkley, W Yorkshire, UK
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2013 ST1300 A9
2025 Miles
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I've never had to do this on an ST1100 before, so I have never encountered the odd labelling of parts on the fiche for an ST1100AV.

Only one set of pistons is shown on the fiche and only one set of seals. Each piston and each seal set is labelled with two numbers.
I am guessing that one is the left hand caliper and one is the right hand caliper.

The part at the side indicates Piston A and Piston B. The seals just say Seal Set.

So when I get my hands on my brother's bike after Christmas, and take a look at the pistons and note that (say) one of the right hand ones needs replacing - how do I know which one of the two to buy? They are mainly all different sizes. Eg one side (10,25,22) is 22x27, 25x35, 22x35 - the other side (15, 26, 25) is 25x27, 27x35, 25x35.
I will know when I take them out because I can measure them - but I was trying to dig out what I had 'in stock'.

Anyone have a clue ?
 
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Interesting that my 'fiche' have the 'lower' number in parenthesis.
They are different sizes but some are common to both sides.
Looks like the top one on the right side is 27X35.
The center one is 22x27.
The bottom one is 25x35.
This is based on the fiche at ronayers.com which does not show 2 numbers. :eek:

https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/hon/506c179ef870023420a2e757/front-brake-caliper-2

I remember this confusion the last time I looked at it.
However, no warranty is expressed or implied by my comments ... ;)
 
Oh, I see, you guys are looking at the ABS2 version. Apparently there are 3 different piston sizes for those calipers.

does this help at all, it shows all 3, each with a different size.

abs1.JPG
abs2.JPG
 
1733658758178.pngThank you all - very much.

The 1999 version that @Uncle Phil provided - I'd not even thought of looking at that because the fiches group the 1100AT / AV / AW together - implying that the 1996-1998 models are different from the 1999 and later models. The caliper itself has a different code number - ending G42, not G41 - I always thought that the last digit was a minor modification - but I've been checking those pistons. There are differences there too. The page provided by @dwalby helped me to realise that the two were not the same. Almost the same size pistons - but their locations seem to be different.

But the Ron Ayers site is useful - the caption for the 1997 model seals helps to understand the annotation. The Ron Ayers site has the pairs of numbers on the diagram for the left hand caliper, but the numbers for the right hand caliper for the pistons and seals are shown in brackets. @Uncle Phil had spotted those too. See image right. My diagram was missing those brackets. I assumed top number was right hand caliper, bottom was left. Which was wrong, but also the position top/bottom is not consistent.

All of the numbers are shown on the diagram for the left hand caliper. So the number in brackets are for the right hand caliper. The seals numbering make this bracket annotation essential. The left hand caliper has seals (not in brackets) 2, 2 and 3. The right hand caliper (numbers in brackets) has seals 3, 1 and 2.

The caption in the RonAyers Fiche reveals this. Eg for part number 2 is says : Seal Set, Piston, Right Side Qty 1 & Left side Qty 2.

The numbers on the fiche that I showed in my first post has none of these clues - it just shows the numbers without the numbers in brackets and the part list at the side has no explanation. It is impossible to be sure.

I thought it was worth writing this up with all of the pointers that people have provided. It didn't give me the answer, but it certainly helped me to find the answer. Almost.

It still doesn't help determine the order. It looks as though the 10 (15) piston should be in the top bore from the diagram - but I am not sure that this is correct. I am inclined to think that the top piston in the diagram is the centre piston in the caliper - that is because normally the shorter piston is in the centre bore - to allow room for the drilled sluice that passes behind to connect the two outer bores. The measurements for the pistons eg 22x27 means 22mm diameter, 27mm long. 27 mm is definitely the shorter one.

When I find out, I'll come back and correct this.

All of this is research. My brother has an 1100AV. He has little mechanical knowledge and his brakes have started dragging a little. He has recently had new tyres fitted at a dealers and I am hoping that is the clue. He lives 2 hours away.
The original plan was when it needed servicing, we'd ride to meet up halfway and swap bikes. We are both named riders on each others insurance. But dragging brakes has put the mockers on that plan, it is not advisable to ride it. So I need to get there with tools and the parts that will definitely need to be replaced and make it rideable again. Anything extra that is needed get it ordered quickly, then go back when the bits arrive.


Thanks folks.
 
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If we have problems deciphering the parts fiches, is it any wonder at all that 'trained Honda mechanics' (at dealerships) get it wrong?
 
1998 and earlier fiche references "Front brake caliper", which is what jfheath showed, with the 6 different reference numbers for the 3 pistons on each side. Each caliper has a different piston configuration.

1999 and later fiche references "front brake caliper 2", which is what my post and UPs link reference, where the 3 different numbers appear to apply to both sides and both sides use the same piston configuration.
 
Right - I promised I would come back to this when I found out more.

I removed and brought home my brother's 3 calipers, and the SMC from his 1997 ST1100 AV. (The part numbers are consistent across all models UK, EU, USA that I have looked at).

If the brackets in the fiches mean left and right - as I had assumed - then they are wrong ! I made sure that only one piston was popped out at a time and I measured it carefully, cleaned it and wrote its location on the back face.

This is what I found (Measurements in mm):

1737054322648.png

The measurements make it easy to recognise the exact piston required. Eg Lower Front Left is 22.5 x 35 - this is listed as 22 x 35 (22.5 is the diameter. 35 is the length).

The label numbers on the fiche cannot be used to determine which part is required if you need just one piston.
Hopefully the diagram above will help - but this only applies to the ST1100 ABS 1996 , 1997, 1998 that I know of.
A quick galnce at the ST1100AW (2000) fiche - is much clearer. I diagram for the left caliper, 1 for the right. No ambiguity, and the same 6 pistons are listed as for the 1997 model that I was looking at.

The seals on the 1997 fiche for the front caliper are equally devoid of any usable information. Except it is convenient to note that for all 6 pots on the front, onlt 3 different variations of seal is required.

1 of #1, 3 of #2, 2 of #3

So assuming that seals are classed by diameter :

Part number 1 - 06431-MA3-405 - Must be for the 27mm pistons
Part number 2 - 06451-GE2-405 - must be for the 25mm pistons
Part number 3 - 06451-MZ2-405 - must be for the 22mm pistons (22.5)

This is backed up by the fiche for the rear caliper - which quotes 2 pistons 27x31 and 1 piston 22x39 and requires the same seals as part numbers 1 and 3 above

But I am glad that I took the measurements of each piston as I removed it and noted where it came from. I couldn't have ordered the correct parts just from the fiche.

It's probably only me that will ever need this information again - but just in case....
 
Yes - on the listing I was using in the UK - there are a number of discrepancies with thee quantity.

Also - if you want (say) one piston and one seal - how do you know which one to choose ?

I'll give you an example on the fiche that you show. Suppose that you want a centre piston for the left caliper ?
I'll bet that your first attempt would not be to go for item #15.

The only way to be sure is to measure the removed one.
 
Suppose that you want a centre piston for the left caliper ?
I'll bet that your first attempt would not be to go for item #15.
By the arrangement in the ex view I'd rated #25 center, left and #26 center, right... (I read left to right, top to bottom...)
 
By the arrangement in the ex view I'd rated #25 center, left and #26 center, right... (I read left to right, top to bottom...)
Yes, that would be logical. I measured each piston as I took it out. The centre piston for the left caliper is indeed #15. 25 x 27 (dia x length)

One clue is that the centre piston has to be shorter than the two outer pistons - because the connecting sluice between the two outer pistons runs behind the centre bore.

But - as I found out just yesterday - the 2000 fiche shows the same components, but has one fiche per caliper, and it is drawn much more carefully.


Interesting that the upper piston has a larger diameter than the lower piston. When fixing pushbike rubber brake pads, I never fitted them parallel to the rooms - always at a very slight angle so that the front of the brake block contacted first. This prevented the brakes juddering or howling.

I wonder if the different size bores ensure a similar pressure differential.
 
I wonder if the different size bores ensure a similar pressure differential.
Methinks that a smaller piston will likely advance (contact first)
I was under the impression, that on CBS:
- rear pedal actuates both (large) outer pistons on rear caliper + the (small) center pistons on the front calipers (pressure modulated by the PCV on LHS front caliper)
- front master actuates the 4 (large) outer pistons on front calipers + the (small) center piston of rear caliper
 
Methinks that a smaller piston will likely advance (contact first)

Yes - I thought that - in which case my pushbike anaology doesn't stand up at all. But when it comes to the amount of pressure applied ???? Normally, you have a small master cylinder piston pushing a large caliper piston. I assume that is so that it is easy to exert a greater pressure at the caliper for a given amount of effort at the lever. So my logic tells me that it you make the caliper piston smaller, that reduces the amount of pressure at the caliper for the same effort at the lever. But I really don't know.

I was under the impression, that on CBS:
- rear pedal actuates both (large) outer pistons on rear caliper + the (small) center pistons on the front calipers (pressure modulated by the PCV on LHS front caliper)

I can clarify what goes on in the brake system. It is pretty impressive - and the system was carried forward to the ST1300.

The rear pedal operates the all 3 centre pistons equally: There is a double banjo coupling on the rear master cylinder . One line goes to the 2 front centre pistons. Another line goes to the rear centre piston. A delay valve on the right fork leg is where the line splits to go to the left and right front centre pistons. The 'delay' prevents the front right centre piston from operating if pressure at the brake pedal is light. It allows it to ooperate if the pedal is pressed harder.

If the front right caliper is applied - either by the front brake or by the rear brake, then the Caliper bracket pivots on its lower mounting bolt and it pushes the plunger of the secondary master cylinder upwards.

So - when the bike is moving, the action of the SMC applies braking force to the two outer pistons on the rear caliper. So if applying the front brake, the harder the front brake is applied, the more pressure is applied by the SMC - although the rider has little feel or control of this behaviour. So there is a safety valve in the circuit. The PCV. This is a hydraulic piston - same idea as in the calipers - which would normally be moved by the pressure in the brake line. It is prevented from being moved by a very strong spring. When the pressure going to the rear pistons becomes excessive the spring yields and the piston moves - relieving the pressure on the rear pistons. The idea is that as you brake hard with the front brakes the rear wheel is wanting to lift. The job of the PCV is to prevent the rear wheel from locking up when that happens. It is located on the right hand side of the bike behind the removable panel.

Working out what the strength of that spring needs to be by trial and error would have been an interesting test rider job. No thanks.

When stationary, the SMC cannot operate - it requires the front wheel to be rotating. Pressure from the brake pedal still enters the inlet port of the SMC, and like all primary seals in the master cylinders, it is designed to yield to pressure from behind - so fluid and pressure flow to the two outer pistons in the rear. (Just like a bicycle pump - the 'leather' washer yields on the upstroke to allow air to pass into the tube from behind, ready for it to be pumped into the tyre on the next downstroke.)


- front master actuates the 4 (large) outer pistons on front calipers + the (small) center piston of rear caliper

The front lever operates the two outer pistons on both front calipers. A completely independent circuit.

But the application of the front brake lever causes the left hand caliper to operate the SMC - which applies the rear oute pistons. But this also happens if you just press the brake pedal. That applies the front left centre piston - which also activates the SMC.


So front lever operates 4 front pistons directly. That causes SMC to operate 2 outer rear pistons.
Rear Pedal operates all 3 centre pistons (ignoring the delay valve for now) AND that causes the SMC to operate the two rear outer pistons.
 
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